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Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took different paths

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Re: Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took different paths

#151
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t it common to be given a lot of antibiotics when you get a surgery?

I had a fairly significant surgery at a premiere US hospital including several days of recovery in the hospital and didn’t get any antibiotics after the fact. They could have injected me with something during the actual surgery, but it didn’t show up on the bill. I think this may be specific to Heart surgery.

I was given prophylactic antibiotics for prostate surgery. It might depend on the surgeon.

Re: Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took different paths

#152
post #106
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you just care, you'd probably say the "the episode called..." and maybe describe it for the person if you interpret their reaction as not understanding or recognizing it. Edit: why disagree? Not recognizing that someone wants more information, or that your communication doesn't carry enough context for a person to know what you're talking about is classic autism. If you're someone without autism and just care abou…

Because the explicit query was, "What's your favorite episode?". It's frustrating to be accused of disordered thinking on your part when the actual issue is disordered expectations from the other party. What they actually should have asked was, "What happened during your favorite episode?", which might have produced the response given by the sibling. It's not like neurotypical people don't also experience this frustr…

"It's frustrating to be accused of disordered thinking on your part when the actual issue is disordered expectations from the other party."

The expectation isn’t disordered, it's carrying with it implied social expectations (technically it would need to go against these to be disordered). The problem is that neurodivergent people tend to not pick up on the implied expectations and neurological people don't tend to notice that they need to be more explicit with thier expectations.

"What they actually should have asked was, "What happened during your favorite episode?", which might have produced the response given by the sibling."

Why is that what they should have asked? The initial exchange is technically correct. The asker should have said they didn't know that one and asked a follow-up question of what happened in it. Asking what happened in their favorite episode as the first question isn't necessary and isn't the general social flow of conversation.

I do agree on the second paragraph.

Re: Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took different paths

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term is being used in reference to their genes, not their appearance.

I'll mirror what someone else said, have they actually sequenced them? Clearly a lot of changes happened at a very early state, mutations, so why should we expect their genetic makeup to be identical?

it’s almost certainly not identical now, it just used to be at conception

Re: Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took different paths

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading the article, it turns out the one twin who is "more autistic" had a hole in his heart that surgery had to correct. So I suspect the actual issue here is something simpler like a difference in brain development because of the difference in the amount of blood flow.

My theory is that this causation is flipped. Something about whatever the precursor to autism is causes the body to experience more physical failures or malformed structures. Something like whatever mechanisms decode structure from the genome are faulty and produce slightly wrong structures throughout the brain and body. Anecdotally, I see a higher rate of general illness and physical birth defects in autistic people…

FWIW, I have identical twin sons who probably have mild autism. One had an umbilical hernia like the lad in the story. They both had a couple of other small developmental anomalies. But they were both slightly premature (like most twins) and shared a womb. So what's the driver here? One of the above, or possibly the hormones which they were (incorrectly) given to promote lung function? There's a lot to unpick.

Re: Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took different paths

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My theory is that this causation is flipped. Something about whatever the precursor to autism is causes the body to experience more physical failures or malformed structures. Something like whatever mechanisms decode structure from the genome are faulty and produce slightly wrong structures throughout the brain and body. Anecdotally, I see a higher rate of general illness and physical birth defects in autistic people…

There appears to be some correlation between Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome and autism https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7711487/ It makes a certain amount of sense that a collagen / connective tissue disorder is going to have wide-ranging effects, including the nervous system

Wow, I'm hypermobile and my sons have what appears to be mild autism (see my other comment above). Yet more to unpick!

Re: Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took different paths

#156
post #39

It's so interesting to see the differences in their faces. I can tell from the folds and wrinkles on Sam's face that he engages in more neurotypical communication.

I don't know that we can generalise this though - some people mask their autism very well, sometimes without even knowing that's what they're doing.

Re: Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took different paths

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those sorts of guys have ruined all the games I grew up with. I can’t just casually play anymore. It doesn’t exist. Every lobby left is a sweatfest from people who have been playing the game nonstop since it came out 10-20 years ago sometimes. You have to swing vine from vine to whatever crap game is currently popular to get a chance at pwning noobs again.

There's an easy fix for this one! AI literally made game hacks undetectable. It's never been easier to cheat on videogames in a way that poses literally zero risk of getting banned. Here's an example of a tool that has made my "The Finals" experience about 10000% better: https://github.com/Babyhamsta/Aimmy I'm having fun with my buddies, leasiurly talking on discord while yet another diamond sweat-lord who tries to g…

you shouldn't be proud of this. people like you ruin games.

Re: Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took different paths

#158
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The query explicitly didn't include "Despite asking you about your preferences, I have no interest in why you prefer it so please refrain from commenting on that. Please don't waffle or ask me anything back, simply provide me with the title, and I will have all the information I need", so I don't think it's "disordered expectations" to assume that message wasn't conveyed by the question... Neurotypical communication…

No, I do think this is still an example of disordered expectations. What you're pointing out doesn't strike that notion as valid; it expands it from "an expectation of a response to an entirely different question, " to, "an expectation that you will pretend to be and behave as a neurotypical person to suit my comfort even though I know that you're not." Which is probably worse. As the other reply mentioned, there is…

> What you're pointing out doesn't strike that notion as valid; it expands it from "an expectation of a response to an entirely different question, " to, "an expectation that you will pretend to be and behave as a neurotypical person to suit my comfort even though I know that you're not."

No, it changes it from "if you would be interested in hearing anything other than the briefest and least informative answer, it's your responsibility to explicitly state how much information you expect and in what form" to "of the vast set of theoretically possible answers, those which take into account what will be meaningful to the other person are generally better, although it's entirely understandable and expected that autistic people might not be able to do this".

And the article here wasn't insisting autistic people should make conversations flow or that neurotypical people shouldn't ever modify their expectations or followup questions, it made the simple observation that the high-functioning autistic twin has actually learned to do this, pattern matching well enough to provide additional context on behalf of his brother (who apparently regularly struggles to form sentences, presumably even when the question explicitly demands it). I think the conclusion that this is because one of the autistic identical twins has developed better communication skills than his brother (who quite possibly has other learning difficulties) is correct, and it definitely isn't an example of his brother being trapped in a world where all human communication except children's TV is just too imprecise for him.

> I don't know that this is true. If anything, doing this seems to get on their nerves.

There is a happy medium between staccato answers and relating the entire plot of the episode or insisting that all other shows pale in comparison with it, and a difference between bringing up $nichepursuit because someone asked and bringing it up because they were talking about something else. And yes, this happy medium is going to be more difficult for people on the autistic spectrum to recognise. But even excessive enthusiasm about something most people find extremely boring is more endearing than repeated one or three word responses that technically answer the question.

Re: Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took different paths

#159
My 8 yr old identical twin daughter’s have severe autism but one is definitely worse than the other, one of them can use some words but the other is completely unable to communicate.

I have absolutely no explanation for this, I cannot think of anything different that happened to them. They didn’t have antibiotics or surgery at a young age like in this story either.

Re: Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took different paths

#160
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the actual issue is disordered expectations from the other party. There is something called "double empathy problem", referring to the idea that there is a mutual difficulty communicating across neurotypes. Neurotypical people struggle to understand autistic people because of a sort of "language barrier" even without a deficit in neurodivergent communication skills per se. After all, if neurotypical people are univ…

Here is me encountering the pitfalls of speculation as a layman: the phenomenon I stumbled upon is already well-documented. Thank you for the link and explanation.

It wasn't well-documented until recently: afaik, it's largely due to Dr Damian Milton that academia takes this idea seriously. Most academic research about abnormal people is just the rampant pseudoscientific speculation of a respected academic, which has become Accepted Truth because it's published in a serious scientific journal.

This has been getting better over the past decade: I think increased access to science is making it easier for the subjects to learn about the "research" and say "hang on, this is nonsense". On the flipside, though, bigots have increasingly been picking the worst theories from the literature and using them as an excuse to do bigoted stuff. (e.g. you still see lots of people claiming that autistic people "have no theory of mind", because they don't understand that ethics are suspended when nobody's looking)

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