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Huawei building chip equipment R&D center in Shanghai

asia.nikkei.com

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Re: Huawei building chip equipment R&D center in Shanghai

#21

Post by hunglee2 »

The_Colonel wrote: post #18
hunglee2 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the moat is wide if the market was free. However, when it becomes a matter of national security, the economic viability becomes a far lower priority. China is obviously going to get there, just a matter of time.

Sure. But sanctions are fundamentally a tool to incur costs. China doesn't have an unlimited budget. If chips becomes a priority, something else will lose some funding, be it military or e. g. other industry subsidies.

Sure. Opportunity cost is there, I am sure China would much prefer to freely buy Western equipment. However, in case of escalating export controls, it clearly makes sense to further invest in domestic capacity. The 'opportunity gain' is more jobs for Chinese workers, more inward investment that would otherwise have gone into foreign countries.

Re: Huawei building chip equipment R&D center in Shanghai

#22

Post by hunglee2 »

djtango wrote: post #16
hunglee2 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the moat is wide if the market was free. However, when it becomes a matter of national security, the economic viability becomes a far lower priority. China is obviously going to get there, just a matter of time.

Yes - as they say once the possible is known it is always easier to replicate

Indeed. Second mover advantage should be well known by now

Re: Huawei building chip equipment R&D center in Shanghai

#23

Post by [deleted] »

throwaway4good wrote: post #11
MobiusHorizons wrote: post #2

I’m really curious if they can turn the investments into competitive process nodes. My understanding is that semiconductor technology has a very wide moat.

I think it is already competitive. They are selling millions of the Huawei Mate 60 pro.

[deleted]

Re: Huawei building chip equipment R&D center in Shanghai

#24

Post by paganel »

roenxi wrote: post #3

It is quite an exciting era to be alive in - both because of the escalating conflicts between nuclear powers but also because we're welcoming another billion+ humans into living in an advanced industrial society. Hard to believe that 1970s China has come this far. Hopefully India follows close behind.

China is already very advanced, I’d say that when it comes to reasonably large countries (so ignoring city-states) it is one of the most tech/industrially advanced countries out there, if not the most advanced.

For example the US might still have some advances in tech but basic stuff like speed/rail systems are just not up to par, while countries like Japan or Germany might still be ahead of China in some specialized industrial stuff but their tech/IT feels like it’s a geological era behind China’s.

The next billion people that might get industrialized now live in Africa, but the situation is a little bit more complex there.

Re: Huawei building chip equipment R&D center in Shanghai

#25

Post by Rinzler89 »

willt1979 wrote: post #19
onethought wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they state it up front and people know what they are getting into. What’s the issue? If it’s so horrible, it won’t work right?

[flagged]

I get both you and your parent's PoV but you gotta be aware that the people working on the first iPhone and Android were also working basically 24/7 up until the launch, and Apple even moved them into hotels next to the office so they wouldn't have to commute.

Similarly, China is also now in a race of rapid technologization to catch up or surpass the US competitors and you don't get there by working only 40h/week.

US big tech success proved that for the right amount of money clearly enough skilled people would work brutal schedules, so I also see no problem if this work relationship is consensual and agreed by both parties and can be terminated at any time if it's not bearable for the workers, especially since those skilled tech workers have plenty of other options for working lax schedules for less money if they wish so.

But if they voluntarily choose the brutal schedules for the money, it's their call and why should I or other parties have a say in this?

Re: Huawei building chip equipment R&D center in Shanghai

#26

Post by mrjin »

hunglee2 wrote: post #4
MobiusHorizons wrote: post #2

I’m really curious if they can turn the investments into competitive process nodes. My understanding is that semiconductor technology has a very wide moat.

the moat is wide if the market was free. However, when it becomes a matter of national security, the economic viability becomes a far lower priority. China is obviously going to get there, just a matter of time.

China does not have a choice, does it? The funny thing is that, whatever the west tried to prevent China from acquiring, in the end China managed to crack it and eventually made a better version.

Re: Huawei building chip equipment R&D center in Shanghai

#27

Post by mrjin »

hunglee2 wrote: post #21
The_Colonel wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. But sanctions are fundamentally a tool to incur costs. China doesn't have an unlimited budget. If chips becomes a priority, something else will lose some funding, be it military or e. g. other industry subsidies.

Sure. Opportunity cost is there, I am sure China would much prefer to freely buy Western equipment. However, in case of escalating export controls, it clearly makes sense to further invest in domestic capacity. The 'opportunity gain' is more jobs for Chinese workers, more inward investment that would otherwise have gone into foreign countries.

There were intense arguments regarding whether to buy or to research in China. The "buying is better" party won and hence China lost ~30 years on chips R&D. But the embargo snapped right on the faces of the "buying is better" guys and leaving China no choice but to bite the bullet. So what those Chinese pioneers wanted but failed to achieve has now firmly implemented by the embargo...

Re: Huawei building chip equipment R&D center in Shanghai

#28

Post by mft_ »

Rinzler89 wrote: post #25
willt1979 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I get both you and your parent's PoV but you gotta be aware that the people working on the first iPhone and Android were also working basically 24/7 up until the launch, and Apple even moved them into hotels next to the office so they wouldn't have to commute. Similarly, China is also now in a race of rapid technologization to catch up or surpass the US competitors and you don't get there by working only 40h/week. US…

Well, a few thoughts.

1) There's a huge difference between a temporary 'crunch' (as in the examples you gave) and a prevailing company culture; organising a company such that the (unwritten?) expectation is of '007' working just shouldn't be an acceptable model.

2) I think you're conflating two different issues, deliberately or not. Fundamentally, yes, I agree that individuals should have a free choice over how they spend their time and their physical capital in return for money; and further, in this case, given we're taking about educated and sought-after workers, some of the arguments that apply to treatment of lower-paid workers don't apply. However, the issue is to what extent one views it as moral that a company is organised, implicity or explicity, along these lines: as the argument often goes, if you can't run your company profitably or effectively without resorting to such measures, you need to rethink your fundamentals.

3) And here, of course, it's probably not about scraping by in a low-margin sector, given it's R&D and they're apparently offering double the market rate: it's just about an pre-existing toxic company culture. And given what we know about people's output not scaling linearly with extreme hours worked, it doesn't even make rational sense. In theory, they could pay lower (but still attractive) salaries, hire 50% more people, work them less hard, and (all else being equal) probably be even more productive.

Re: Huawei building chip equipment R&D center in Shanghai

#29

Post by blackoil »

willt1979 wrote: post #19
onethought wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they state it up front and people know what they are getting into. What’s the issue? If it’s so horrible, it won’t work right?

[flagged]

Huawei is in state of existential crisis. If they (China) don't have a breakthrough in chip manufacturing in 2-5 years, Huawei as the company will be finished and along with China's plan to be independent of Western world. So, think of this as their Manhattan project, not sexy or romantic, but necessary.

Re: Huawei building chip equipment R&D center in Shanghai

#30

Post by htkrkrktj »

roenxi wrote: post #3

It is quite an exciting era to be alive in - both because of the escalating conflicts between nuclear powers but also because we're welcoming another billion+ humans into living in an advanced industrial society. Hard to believe that 1970s China has come this far. Hopefully India follows close behind.

[flagged]
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