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Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets

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Re: Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets

#161
post #6

I agree with Google on this one. Charging a fee just for linking to something is a bad idea. It does get fuzzier if you're also summarizing, and there's clearly some sort of spectrum from "just the URL" to "AI synopsis of the entire article". But at the level we see on Google News (headline + maybe a picture), I don't feel there's any good justification for charging.

Just to think about this more, are there any other business types, besides online news, where your success so radically depends on the decisions (read google news ranking and summarization algorithms) of some other business that you have zero relations with. Google news+facebook+twitter can drastically change the revenue of any online news site with an internal decision. Where else do we see something like this in th…

App developers and Apple/Google

Manufacturers and Retailers

There are lots of examples of people who produce things being beholden to a few companies that controls the distribution channels.

A more interesting one is small businesses and payment processors which don't control the distribution but rather keep them operationally dependant on a product they control a monopoly over.

Re: Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuine question, why don’t publishers stop using doubleclick and build their own?

Google has thoroughly rigged the space, including manipulating bid stream data to underpay publishers while overcharging the advertiser. It’s called Project Bernake which is public now. I have it on reliable sources there is a lot more beyond that. The search antitrust suit was garbage, but the coming trials in the ad auction suit is going to hurt a lot more. They total lost their way, it’s actually insane when you’l…

Having never read this, current Texas anti-trust lawsuit. [1]

Alleges quite a bit, yet the main four in the article are.

1) Google says it runs a Second Price auction, but really runs a Third Price auction, ignores the 2nd bid, and takes the difference for (shifting purposes). Telling a Publisher they made $8, when they would have made $12.80.

2) Google inflates bids of buyers "to ensure their advertisers beat out bids from competing buying platforms". Artificially making their platform look better economically. Was individual cases, yet now alleged to be a global pool of stolen Publisher money.

3) Gaining access to Publisher's ad-spend behavior with Dynamic Allocation, and then using the info to make sure rival platforms seemed less competitive by manipulating and inflating other bids. Make sure they always seem to lose by $0.01 on every bid.

4) Forcing Publishers to accept Dynamic Allocation by punishing them with the maximum allowed revenue drop for Bernake (40%) while inflating competitors. Notably Machiavellian that there was a known allowed revenue drop. "We're bein nice, we'll only cut you 25%"

On a slightly different topic, made me wonder how many investment firms artificially lower rates on funds to scrape a bit of profit off the top.

[1] https://texasattorneygeneral.gov/sites/default/files/images/... (note, the child-support location is really weird)

Re: Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets

#163
The US is worried that if even private journalistic entities are strangled to death, then it will have to stand up a national news service like the BBC and won't be immune from the "state sponsored news" label it loves to apply to other countries.

However, Google's interest, despite being entangled with the US quite deeply, is to not spend money to save the ecosystem. Most likely, they have their own plan for this eventuality. After all, if they would be single-handedly supporting multiple news companies, why shouldn't it be its own mega-news company and keep the additional revenues?

Re: Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets

#164
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the problem with news? Why aren't people willing to pay for it?

Because people don't value it. I mean, seriously, that's the reason. Back when newspapers were healthy, basically there was all this stuff that was bundled with the actual news that was of more immediate utility to people: classifieds, movie reviews, comics, coupons. And there was less competition for people's leisure time. News is now in a very competitive leisure time landscape and is debundled from stuff that's of…

Completely agree with all this, though my take away is that there's a big vicious cycle of adblockers and paywalls where they keep getting worse. I can't afford to subscribe to every newspaper I read. All the local (and smaller national) papers should unionize and make one subscription for something like $20 a month

Re: Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets

#165
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to think about this more, are there any other business types, besides online news, where your success so radically depends on the decisions (read google news ranking and summarization algorithms) of some other business that you have zero relations with. Google news+facebook+twitter can drastically change the revenue of any online news site with an internal decision. Where else do we see something like this in th…

Yes, hundreds upon hundreds. There isn't a single physical product that's not beholden to the Walmarts of the world to stock, market and highlight those products. There isn't a single farmer in this world that isn't dependant on stores buying off their produce and putting it into shelves. Heck, even in paper era, there wasn't a single paper not beholden to kiosks and other stores to put their papers into racks and in…

Newspapers obviously sold their paper to the paper kiosks, who then sold it to customers. Hence a business relationship between the two types of entities.

In the Google News case, no news sites sells their news to Google News. There is no business relation between Google News or any de jure contact whatsoever between the two. It's different. I am not saying its good or bad, or that this gives the right to the news sites for news sites to demand payments from Google.

But I think its a weird scenario that doesn't occur in other markets. And to understand the pathologies of the online news business, we need to think about this particular no-relations fact.

Re: Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets

#166
post #135
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually agree with it too. Google and Facebook aren't the reason news outlets have cash problems and a free teat to latch on to isn't the answer. News is important, but let's fix the problem in a better way.

What is the problem with news? Why aren't people willing to pay for it?

The value proposition in the internet age is too low to demand the price neccessary to support it. This created a race to the bottom in order to keep the lights on. This further degraded the value of the product. This caused people to value it less, and so on.

The end result is reputable news sites became clickbait and eventually people stopped caring.

There is still a market for in depth journalism, and we see a rise in that sort of things. There are plenty of youtube channels doing documentary-like videos on current events. That is journalism.

The journalism that is dying is the stuff concentrating on breaking news. If its shallow its outcompeted by twitter. If its higher quality but still racing to the headline, its outcompeted by wikipedia. The fact is the competitors to breaking news journalism are cheaper and higher quality.

Re: Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets

#167
post #150

"The news media industry is dying because of tech" is a massively successful myth perpetuated by the news media industry. Back in the day before tech platforms there used to be 5 successful news companies and 5 failing ones. Today there are 5 successful news companies and 500 failing ones. Tech reduced the barriers to entry and made the playing field more level, giving rise to smaller publications and indie journalis…

> "The news media industry is dying because of tech" is a massively successful myth perpetuated by the news media industry.

Why do you think that's a myth? The news industry was always reliant on advertising for revenue. The tech giants of the Internet era all figured out how to better target advertisements, so a huge amount of that advertising money shifted from news to tech giants (and not just tech "giants" - Craigslist basically killed classified ads, and Craigslist isn't exactly a "giant").

I don't really know if the news media industry is "dying", but of course tech was hugely instrumental in reducing the overall amount of revenue that goes to journalism.

Re: Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets

#168
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No idea why this is getting downvoted, but would love to hear what people think is wrong.

I downvoted you because I think you provided an overly facile explanation that focuses too much on headlines rather than the actual issue here. A headline has always been an attempt to sell an article access to headlines and has a long history of freely accessible for this reason. Publishers WANT links to their article to use their headlines because that is how the articles are sold. You talk about the 'atomic unit o…

For the record, I disagree with the bill.

My point is that sharing links is a double edged sword that was sort of forced on the news publishers. They've grown dependent on the traffic -- and agreed, they need a different business model -- but thats tough when anyone else can undercut you and publish for free, and then compete for that same traffic.

Also, if you think you can differentiate on curation or speed, you cannot, because those same links will appear regardless.

And yes, the advertising monopoly is a huge part of this -- but the argument has always been that the search engines need news just as much as news needs search engines. But they've set up the situation in a way that they have all the leverage.

Re: Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets

#169
post #6

I agree with Google on this one. Charging a fee just for linking to something is a bad idea. It does get fuzzier if you're also summarizing, and there's clearly some sort of spectrum from "just the URL" to "AI synopsis of the entire article". But at the level we see on Google News (headline + maybe a picture), I don't feel there's any good justification for charging.

Just to think about this more, are there any other business types, besides online news, where your success so radically depends on the decisions (read google news ranking and summarization algorithms) of some other business that you have zero relations with. Google news+facebook+twitter can drastically change the revenue of any online news site with an internal decision. Where else do we see something like this in th…

[deleted]

Re: Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets

#170
I have sympathy for news publishers but I worry a lot about the principle of asserting that linking to something is an act that the link target has proprietary rights to over. At some level, it is almost a free speech issue. If I can't refer to what you are saying, without owing you something, you have power over not just my speech, but a power to limit how your work is subjected to criticism and debate. It's effectively an extension of copyright law to expand copyright holder's rights.

Obviously all this is hyperbolic based the actual text of the law. The law doesn't directly apply any sort of link tax, and it is shamelessly targeted only at Google and Facebook (to the point that they wrote Facebook in there by name, which is kind of stupid if you ask me). But if you drill into the reasoning it hits at the foundational level on this basic logic, and it's pretty concerning if we assume then that this will be significantly extrapolated and expanded - as has been the history with all other aspects of copyright in the past.

Honestly I would rather that governments come clean and just admit that the problem they are trying to solve is actually a "social good" outcome, and therefore directly tax the platforms and then redistribute the revenue to a fund created by government for news journalism themselves. Trying to artificially construct that through introduction of significant new precedents in copyright law engenders huge risks of unintended consequences and potential future extrapolation and abuse of this principle.

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