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Mental health in software engineering

vadimkravcenko.com

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Re: Mental health in software engineering

#401

Post by [deleted] »

mjr00 wrote: post #387
jjav wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Software engineering is not a low-status position Pay is not status. Software currently pays quite well, but in most companies today a developer is at the very bottom of the status curve. Developers are no longer allowed any say in what to build or how to build it, they are micromanaged by product managers and program managers and team managers and required to give daily status reports ("agile"). (I say "used to" b…

> Pay is not status. Software currently pays quite well, but in most companies today a developer is at the very bottom of the status curve. This is your own perspective, and again, it's extremely warped. If you think developers are at the very bottom of the status curve, go sign up to be your company's janitor, receptionist, HR/"talent acquisition", junior accountant, or any "operations"/"administration" role. Someon…

[deleted]

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#402

Post by makeitdouble »

JohnFen wrote: post #400
makeitdouble wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear you. I see those more as checkpoints than deadlines though. Even with highly self managing people, it's always safer to have some idea of how much time it could take, and check for some kind of status midway to know if it's too different from the rough estimate (sometimes you learn they didn't touch the task for various reasons)

A checkpoint is a flavor of deadline.

It's more of a camouflage I think: the theatric "management" role is fulfilled by having a random event on the calendar, but actual work doesn't have to abide to any set date and will take whatever time it needs to finish.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#403

Post by jimbokun »

mjr00 wrote: post #215
hayst4ck wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctor, lawyer, and athlete are "jock" professions, while software engineering is very much a "nerd" profession. These words represent status and general level of attractiveness and therefore access to attention and sex. Doctors, lawyers, teachers, and professional athletes all experience social reward and/or social contexts to their work. Software engineering is interfacing with an unthinking, unfeeling machine for…

> Doctor, lawyer, and athlete are "jock" professions, while software engineering is very much a "nerd" profession. These words represent status and general level of attractiveness and therefore access to attention and sex. This is just your perspective and, IMO, it's pretty warped. Software engineering is not a low-status position, even compared to doctors and lawyers. You aren't lacking in status or not having sex b…

> You aren't lacking in status or not having sex because you're a software engineer getting paid $200k/year instead of a doctor paid $200k/year.

If you don’t think male doctors have more opportunities with women than male software engineers, other things being equal, I can’t take you seriously.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#404

Post by jimbokun »

p_l wrote: post #251
mjr00 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Doctor, lawyer, and athlete are "jock" professions, while software engineering is very much a "nerd" profession. These words represent status and general level of attractiveness and therefore access to attention and sex. This is just your perspective and, IMO, it's pretty warped. Software engineering is not a low-status position, even compared to doctors and lawyers. You aren't lacking in status or not having sex b…

> This is just your perspective and, IMO, it's pretty warped. Software engineering is not a low-status position, even compared to doctors and lawyers. You aren't lacking in status or not having sex because you're a software engineer getting paid $200k/year instead of a doctor paid $200k/year. I find that it definitely points to a time period when someone entered maybe not workforce, but the "IT world" let's say. Ther…

The stigma is different now.

It’s not “you’re a loser”. It’s “you make a lot of money while ruining the world for everyone else.” Look at the jokes about Zuckerberg imitating a human.

He’s obviously one of the most powerful people in the world. But looked down upon by creating a socially harmful product. Like cigarette company or oil company CEOs.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#405

Post by jimbokun »

TheCleric wrote: post #322
arethuza wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At one point many years ago I was Director of Engineering for a company that was planning a major new version of their product. After I'd been there a few weeks I said to the CEO that I thought I had a pretty good understanding of the scope and challenges for the new release. The CEO said "no you don't" - which led me to ask why he thought this and he said he had thought up a new "must have" feature over the weekend…

Reminds me of my Director of Engineering gig where I was asked how quickly we could deliver a new feature that the CTO had thought of. After giving three different estimates on the spot and being told each was “unrealistic” and told to “try again” in a meeting with senior leadership present, I finally said “Just tell me what date you want to hear so we can pretend I said that.” I was chastised for being unprofessiona…

No sense worrying about getting kicked out of a sinking ship.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#406

Post by riehwvfbk »

rexpop wrote: post #271
riehwvfbk wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And at the end of the day this is exactly the attitude that prevents people from asking for a day off. It's wrong in medicine and it's wrong here. The attitude we should have is: yes, Mr. Successful Boss Man, you are a better human than me: you are more disciplined, don't have a problem with anxiety while dealing with a lot more stress, make more money and even look better. But these facts do absolutely nothing to ch…

> It's wrong in medicine and it's wrong here. This can be said so many times over regarding so many unproductive comparisons. Two wrongs, I've heard all my life, don't make a right. Nevertheless, people insist on dismissing wrongs that aren't, as it were, up to snuff. Well, we as a society can both walk and chew bubblegum. If the OP isn't in here begging us for scarce resources, then he's wrong to interrupt our excha…

Maybe whining about on-call would be OK ;)

The insane hours are actually counterproductive, but many people view them as a badge of honor. It's an odd metric to compete on (I can work more hours for the same pay!), and yet the competition is definitely there.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libby_Zion_Law was enacted only after the daughter of a somewhat famous author died due to an egregious medical error made by severely sleep deprived residents. One has to wonder how many less famous people and their relatives have died prior to that, and what exactly is the benefit of having exhausted doctors running the show. And yet after the law was enacted many hospitals figured out workarounds to keep residents working insane hours (usually by requiring paperwork to be done after hours, unofficially), and many supported the insanity as a necessary rite of passage.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#407

Post by jimbokun »

JohnMakin wrote: post #162
datadrivenangel wrote: post #5

"An example of uncertainty in business is when your CEO tells you they promised a feature to your biggest client and it needs to be built ASAP as highest priority, so all hands on deck. Then a day later they tell you another feature, completely contradictory to the first one, needs to be built as well and is also highest priority. When you tell them they both can't be highest priority, the answer is: make it happen."…

One of the strongest skills as a business facing developer is being able to say no.

I have a feeling that the ability to say “no” may be one of the key abilities that good human developers have over coding AIs. Knowing how to figure out the actual business need and realistic technical solutions, as opposed to just saying “yes” to the initial request, without really understanding feasibility or the real requirements.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#408

Post by calvinmorrison »

ornornor wrote: post #344
mrguyorama wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed! Software development is both knowledge, and creative work, but the industry treats us like replaceable cogs in an assembly line, which is NOT knowledge or creative work. We even utilize work tracking systems made FOR assembly line work, like kanban. We KNOW that using your brain like that leads to mental exhaustion, in exactly the same way we know a tradey kneeling while they do carpet all workweek will have…

This is how I feel. But I’ve had enough. I’m seriously considering leaving the field, it doesn’t bring me joy anymore. I think there are blue collar jobs that aren’t too hard on your body that have some of the elements we enjoy in SE while having more concrete results (and a clear “it is done” point). I’m personally looking into HVAC installation and maintenance: some engineering, some tech (computers are everywhere)…

Electrical installation of commercial camera and security systems. Networking running lines but not programming.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#409

Post by strken »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #380
strken wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is confusing code with output. If you work for a company that builds medical software, then your output is something like quality-adjusted life years for patients and has nothing to do with the code you incidentally use to get there. Taking the view that none of the software you wrote is still running is a bit like an automotive engineer who thinks none of the car models she worked on at the start of her…

Even if you measure that way... again... most software industry businesses fail/disappear from the market. Outside of the largest companies, their business solutions tend to be transient.

I agree, but that's the human condition, not some software industry peculiarity.

As per Shelley:

Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!

Nothing beside remains. Round the decay

Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare

The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#410

Post by matrix87 »

boogieknite wrote: post #265
sandworm101 wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> >You cannot take a sick day by telling your team, “I have mental issues and need a day off.” I'm in an environment (military) were we actively work to prevent this. I have lots of kids (18-20yo) with mental health issues that are not helped by being allowed to take time off so casually. Our mental health experts want to keep people working because having them sit at home drinking/gaming does nothing. I have seen ki…

I've seen what you describe but then also can speak for myself that on my time off I'm awfully active. Building things physical and/or software, spending time outside, reading, etc. If I retired tomorrow I'd probably work just as much, if not more, because I'd work on my interests and not what I was assigned. This is common for the majority of adults I know. I'd say I'm far from fully burnt out (we've all had our mom…

leisure isn't wasting time. Not everything you do has to have economic value
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