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H-1B visa fraud alive and well amid anti-abuse efforts

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Re: H-1B visa fraud alive and well amid anti-abuse efforts

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Easiest” way is probably getting married to a citizen. On the scale of least horrible, refugee status might be OK if you can get it, but the anti-refugee climate here has never been worse.

> “Easiest” way is probably getting married to a citizen. I don't think that's the case, anymore. I remember a notorious case, around here, where a guy had a Russian wife (I have no idea of the background -but they were married for many years), he was dying of leukemia, and required her around-the-clock care, and they deported her.

I mean you probably are missing a bunch of details.

Being married doesn't automatically grant you citizenship. It does give a way to apply for a green card (IIRC, no caps on this path so it's "easy") which then gives a path to citizenship (naturalization).

So; no-duh if the guy's wife is russian she can be deported; she's probably overstayed her visa while caring for the guy.

Re: H-1B visa fraud alive and well amid anti-abuse efforts

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But good for the people running the consulting companies, and their friends in politics.

Yup and that is why people like Narayan Murthy are the greatest criminals in the history of India. Ruined an entire generation of Indians by teaching them to do second hand work and stopped any original thinking from happening. That is why they are so behind China.

How is it Murthy’s fault? India started behind on many sectors and needed time to catch up.

These vilified IT sweatshop jobs were and remain stable paths to the middle class for young Indians growing up in poverty.

It’s only recently that India started to produce high-quality startups, because they had already built a base with the low-hanging fruit first.

P.S. - I’m not Indian.

Re: H-1B visa fraud alive and well amid anti-abuse efforts

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “Easiest” way is probably getting married to a citizen. I don't think that's the case, anymore. I remember a notorious case, around here, where a guy had a Russian wife (I have no idea of the background -but they were married for many years), he was dying of leukemia, and required her around-the-clock care, and they deported her.

I mean you probably are missing a bunch of details. Being married doesn't automatically grant you citizenship. It does give a way to apply for a green card (IIRC, no caps on this path so it's "easy") which then gives a path to citizenship (naturalization). So; no-duh if the guy's wife is russian she can be deported; she's probably overstayed her visa while caring for the guy.

Me Mum was British[0], but had to get US citizenship, in order to bring in her mother, for final years care.

She was pissed off.

[0] https://cmarshall.com/miscellaneous/SheilaMarshall.htm

Re: H-1B visa fraud alive and well amid anti-abuse efforts

#44
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are actually four large “buckets” on H1B usage in software. First are the “regular” software jobs. At the large tech players or other regular companies (eg a software job at a bank). Like you said, there is a lot of supply due to layoffs and not a lot of demand. H1Bs in this area are also limited this year due to this. Second are the college graduates. Once you complete a STEM degree as a foreign student you ge…

Thank You. I did not realize about the 3 year college graduate category. But does the law make these buckets? Or is there one H1-B bucket and you are categorizing the buckets by industry and types of companies that hire H1-B. Don't you think that the 3 year college student bucket, and the generally other buckets, would suppress jobs/salary of the local US population? They would be competing against US students gradua…

> Don't you think that the 3 year college student bucket, and the generally other buckets, would suppress jobs/salary of the local US population?

Only if you can find somebody to hire--because it's important to realize that H-1B applies to more than just computer touchers.

Before we got married, my wife was on an OPT. Her employer was not used to hiring foreign nationals, but they literally couldn't find somebody who would be willing to do the job. My wife is a special-education teacher at a school for very difficult kids, and not a programmer. That's not a common skillset and it's a very stressful job that almost nobody wants. (Turnover at her job is close to 100% per year, and is over 100% per year in some roles.)

The school isn't going to pay more for a probably-mythical candidate; the money doesn't exist. But kids need teachers.

Tech workers are absolutely a different story and causing some impact on the local tech-worker economy (but probably less than most people think; my employer just hires in India when it can now, instead, so no local businesses get paid by people working here), but every road that seems to be currently on the table seems to indicate that the overwhelming desire in the louder quarters isn't "fix tech-worker H-1B", it's "they terk er jerbs, kill H-1B". Which scans, given that when we get really honest about it; the spiciest reaction to H-1B, in my experience, is that it's dual-intent.

So even with the best of intentions (not those ones), touching the system is hard. The political valence is fraught, the system itself is complex and has a lot of moving parts, and the core assumptions being bandied around about job availability and supply curves are just not proven--or, probably, provable.

Re: H-1B visa fraud alive and well amid anti-abuse efforts

#45
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are actually four large “buckets” on H1B usage in software. First are the “regular” software jobs. At the large tech players or other regular companies (eg a software job at a bank). Like you said, there is a lot of supply due to layoffs and not a lot of demand. H1Bs in this area are also limited this year due to this. Second are the college graduates. Once you complete a STEM degree as a foreign student you ge…

Thank You. I did not realize about the 3 year college graduate category. But does the law make these buckets? Or is there one H1-B bucket and you are categorizing the buckets by industry and types of companies that hire H1-B. Don't you think that the 3 year college student bucket, and the generally other buckets, would suppress jobs/salary of the local US population? They would be competing against US students gradua…

I am categorizing them because each have their own background. For the law it is one big bucket.

The theory is that there is enough demand and not enough supply of people to fill this demand. In practice there is a lot of nuance. It is a messy outdated system that is being stretched and abused.

Some of them are: US colleges like foreign students due to the money they bring in. This is not going to stop. H1B employees in the third and fourth categories are paid less compared to the US employees and even compared to the first category. So there is an intrinsic demand. These companies also don’t intend to hire US workers. They “prefer” foreign workers due to a variety of reasons, some in the legal grey area, some not legal. Some are: These employees are there to help run the offshore workforce so they want someone who understands the culture and work with them, even better if this is somewhere who was actually offshore and can come to the US and act as a bridge. They also use this as an incentive for the employees in India and elsewhere. They don’t want to pay more. Like I said some are in the legal grey area and use loopholes. There is a recent lawsuit against TCS related to this. These jobs are not going to stop unless US companies stop outsourcing because these jobs (and they being fulfilled by foreign workers) are fundamental to how the outsourcing model is run by these companies.

My personal opinion is the first and second categories do not suppress jobs and salaries of US workers. These companies pay the same for both and a lot of times actually spend a net higher amount of money on the foreign workers due to the H1B overhead and fees involved (a fee when applying, renewals every 3 years, applying for green card etc). These employees also tend to be good at what they do.

The third is where the vast majority of suppression comes from. And the fourth is where the vast majority of skirting the law happens.

Re: H-1B visa fraud alive and well amid anti-abuse efforts

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Easiest” way is probably getting married to a citizen. On the scale of least horrible, refugee status might be OK if you can get it, but the anti-refugee climate here has never been worse.

> “Easiest” way is probably getting married to a citizen. I don't think that's the case, anymore. I remember a notorious case, around here, where a guy had a Russian wife (I have no idea of the background -but they were married for many years), he was dying of leukemia, and required her around-the-clock care, and they deported her.

Dude, there must be something incredibly specific about this case for this to be a thing. Like the wife just said she was a tourist and never left instead of applying for a green card.

If you just do the paperwork - enter the US under a K1 Visa (fiancé(e) visa), get married, and then apply for a green card once you're married - you won't be randomly deported when your spouse gets leukemia.

It is actually is very easy (multiple people in my family have done this - one guy has even sponsored multiple foreign wives because they keep leaving him cuz he's an asshole). But you do have to do the paperwork if you don't wanna get deported.

Re: H-1B visa fraud alive and well amid anti-abuse efforts

#47

Why is there a lottery anyway instead of a salary ranking/salary threshold system? This'd disincentivize bad actors, ensure the US domestic labor pool is not undercut, and (more or less) lead to higher quality H-1B immigrants.

Well, not all specialties pay the same so it'd be problematic if some of the worse paying ones had a bunch of unfilled spots while higher ones didn't. There isn't a (financial) incentive to quit your better paying job to work a less paying one.

I think a better solution is just a "tariff" where a company has to pay an additional 50% of the total compensation to the government. Then if you could fill the spot with an american you'd want to because it saves you a ton of money; but if you actually can't find somebody (at your offered price) then you still have the option of offering a visa.

Re: H-1B visa fraud alive and well amid anti-abuse efforts

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because regions and industries that pay less would be mad, and they’ve got lots of congressmen.

That could potentially be solved by having different buckets for different regions and industries? Seems like that'd be a much fairer system than the current lottery one.

Fair is an odd word here, the system should work for the greatest benefit for Americans.

I think a wage threshold and weighting would be best, but others think a controlled random mixing of labour markets is better for the overall economy.

Re: H-1B visa fraud alive and well amid anti-abuse efforts

#49
post #26

Since H-1B says it is supposedly intended for high-value employees unobtainable in the US, why not auction the visas, with a reserve price that would prevent them being used to push down wages?

A counter argument I've seen - with auction only IT companies will be able to hire H-1B workers and other industries like healthcare and pharma and even chip production will be out-priced. Different industries have different level of salaries. $200k/y salary may suppress SDE wages in Silicon Valley but it is well above market rate for an electrical or a chemical engineer.

It's only a counter argument if you make an assumption that H1-B program is designed to bring, specifically, healthcare or pharma workers.

Unless you can point to a reason why law of supply and demand was breached, high salaries reflect high demand vs. low supply and low salaries reflect low demand vs. high supply.

My understanding is that healthcare and pharma are not exactly poor industries so if they don't pay their highly skilled workers a lot of money, the most likely explanation is that there's abundance of those workers.

What follows from that is that we don't need to import them from abroad.

And that logic generalizes to all industries hence it really is that simple as letting in those who can score the highest salaries.

It aligns the interests of U.S. in general (highly paid workers put way more into taxes than they get back in benefits) with the interests of the companies.

It's hard to game, simple to apply and trivial to verify (once you issue SSN you check with IRS once a year if they are really paid what the company said it will pay). And if companies try some fraud they are now in the business of tax fraud.

It boggles the mind that this is not a rule applied by all governments in the world. Unless, of course, you understand that government is not exactly pre-occupied with doing the best thing for the country but with doing the best thing for themselves. All those speeches you can give, on both sides, about immigration!

Re: H-1B visa fraud alive and well amid anti-abuse efforts

#50

Why is there a lottery anyway instead of a salary ranking/salary threshold system? This'd disincentivize bad actors, ensure the US domestic labor pool is not undercut, and (more or less) lead to higher quality H-1B immigrants.

> instead of a salary ranking/salary threshold

Because in spite of what the law actually says, the entire purpose of the H1B visa program is and always has been a way to get mostly adequate people who'll work cheap.

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