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Mental health in software engineering

vadimkravcenko.com

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Re: Mental health in software engineering

#331

Post by __loam »

lenerdenator wrote: post #327
__loam wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That and Welchism are two big reasons why the business culture in the valley sucks.

I see Welchism (I assume we're talking about Jack of GE) as the opposite of lots of SV culture. They both suck, but for completely different reasons. GE actually had real business units. Energy, aerospace, consumer, industrial, healthcare, you name it, they had a presence. Welch couldn't squeeze enough money to meet Wall Street's expectations out of these units, and didn't innovate when microcomputers were coming ont…

Yeah I do mean the same Jack Welch who looted GE and permanently sent American business culture into a seemingly unrecoverable decline. Maybe GE was just way too unfocused of a company to exist, but if you squint enough, you can see the trail of shit leading from his leadership at GE to places like Boeing and now Google, where employees are discarded even when you're making billions in profit every quarter and you have a near monopoly on your industry. Welch taught the American business elite to ride that horse hard until it collapses from exhaustion and you can move on to the next company to loot.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#332

Post by godelski »

SJC_Hacker wrote: post #239
ericmcer wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anything Engineers would get the least pushback to taking a mental health day of those careers. Our skillset becomes so uniquely tied to the company we work at that replacing a veteran engineer would take more than a year minimum. The differences between operations at two hospitals is probably minuscule compared to two tech companies. It also feels like managers have received training in "burnout" so the few times…

> Our skillset becomes so uniquely tied to the company we work at that replacing a veteran engineer would take more than a year minimum. The differences between operations at two hospitals is probably minuscule compared to two tech companies. Companies/managers have gotten alot smarter about this. The strategy is to hire enough and be managed to a degree such that the operation of any single system is never left leav…

Replaceable doesn't mean without friction or decrease of quality.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#333

Post by Zenzero »

zeroonetwothree wrote: post #314
Zenzero wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who crossed over from medicine, I can attest that software engineers have it very very good. Appreciate what you have. I accept everyone's personal experiences with bad management, unreasonable timelines, and uninspiring projects, but those things are everywhere. Now add in patients and their families having the worst days of their lives in your presence day after day, high-pressure decision making, not ge…

There’s a certain type of person that always has to comment whenever anyone says they have it hard by pointing out how actually those problems are nothing compared to X. It’s like a weird obsession with having to win the suffering competition.

It's a counterbalancing perspective that leads to healthy moderation.

If you live in a bubble of 16 year olds gifted new brand new cars and you complain openly how yours got dented, it's only fair that everyone else outside of that bubble rightfully calls you out and tells you to appreciate what you have.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#334

Post by MichaelZuo »

gavmor wrote: post #317
makk wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most deadlines were entirely arbitrary Yes. As are most tasks, in my experience. Looking back on your almost 30 years, what percent of tasks could have been skipped entirely and, in the long run, it wouldn't have mattered? For me, it's easily >50% ... catch me on a grumpy day and I'd say it's closer to 90%.

Sure, but that inertia carries you over the myriad alignment traps strewn like potholes over the face of your production–possibility frontier.

If anything that's overstating the prospects of the median person in software engineering.

Probably even the 99th percentile HN user couldn't do anything lasting and noteworthy if they somehow were blocked from relying on inertia, sheer dumb luck, obscure chains of fortuitous happenstance, etc...

e.g. probably no one reading this can even hold the full Bluetooth spec in their head and understand all the tricks and pitfalls and obscure corner cases. Let alone do any useful work based on that.

For the vast vast majority, progress happens in the form of millions of monkeys bashing typewriters in the hopes of getting a gem.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#335

Post by anshumankmr »

chollida1 wrote: post #177

I'm not terribly convinced that software engineering is harder on someone mental health than being a doctor, lawyer, sales, engineer, professional athlete, teacher, or any other white collar profession is. All of these have their specific stressors, all of these professions have loads of articles about how people are leaving these professions due to how hard they are. All of these jobs tend to lead to them consuming…

>I'm now 20 years into my career and never once have I come across this attitude. People take sick days all the time for mental health. I feel terribly for this person that they felt like they couldn't but this is far and away the exception rather than the rule.

>Has any company come out against mental health in the past 20 years?

Where do you work?

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#336

Post by classified »

submain wrote: post #8
datadrivenangel wrote: post #5

"An example of uncertainty in business is when your CEO tells you they promised a feature to your biggest client and it needs to be built ASAP as highest priority, so all hands on deck. Then a day later they tell you another feature, completely contradictory to the first one, needs to be built as well and is also highest priority. When you tell them they both can't be highest priority, the answer is: make it happen."…

As a manager, if upstream changes priorities on me but what we’re working on is almost done, I just go ahead and finish it anyways. When they eventually switch back to the original thing they are always surprised to know it’s been completed.

Bad tactics. You let them make stupid mistakes with impunity. That way they'll never learn.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#337

Post by rramadass »

dboreham wrote: post #153

I've come to believe that there's something about the practice of software development that causes , or can cause mental illness. I've seen a few colleagues over the decades have some very serious issues. It's really quite a serious problem in our industry, imho.

> there's something about the practice of software development that causes, or can cause mental illness.

I think i have figured this out :-) It is a combination of multiple factors; the major ones are listed below (note that the articles linked to are not specific to software developers but the factors in the studies can be extrapolated);

1) Biology - We Humans are evolved for Activity and Motion. Long periods of prolonged sitting (the norm in the software industry) and physical inactivity are injurious to both physical and mental health. There have been lots of studies validating this; here is one done during the covid-19 pandemic - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8190724/

2) Biology - Messing with our Circadian Rhythm ruins our health. We Humans are not evolved for staying indoors but need to be outdoors in direct sunlight at specific periods of time everyday. Most software folks hardly step out in the Sun during the day. The circadian clock is central to our physical/mental well being and needs to be respected. Here is Sachin Panda (one of the foremost experts on circadian rhythm) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fciGNBN0nKM

3) Psychology - Software Development Management/Processes/Methodologies have devolved into stimulating "constant chronic stress" as opposed to "episodic acute stress". There have been many studies linking the former with depression/anxiety disorder/etc; here is one - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3380803/

4) Lifestyle - Junk food, Energy drinks/Caffeine, Alcohol, Lack of proper nutrition, Too many distractions/context-switching, Too much exposure to artificially lit screens, Lack of sleep etc. etc. Here is a relevant study - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10771855/

Finally, a pdf on implementing "Therapeutic Lifestyle Changes" by Roger Walsh is helpful Lifestyle and Mental Health - https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/amp-66-7-579.pdf

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#338

Post by euroderf »

iamacyborg wrote: post #218
yodsanklai wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People take sick days all the time for mental health When you take a sick day, you're not supposed to say what's your issue.

The last 3 companies I’ve worked at over the last few years have all had “mental health days” in one form or another as a separate offering to sicks days. It’s very common, at least in the UK.

Sounds enlightened.

A lot of the comments here seem to use the term mental health days without irony quotes. A mental health day is not a psychological crisis. It is a plea for a timeout from the workaday grind.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#339

Post by aAaaArrRgH »

Phiwise_ wrote: post #307
fnordian_slip wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

5 vs 10 days is still ridiculous imho. I've just read an overview about the us system [0], and it does seem rather absurd, when you're looking at it from a German perspective. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_leave

I'm waiting patiently for the day when I encounter the first European on an American website who understands that Europe sees the American work standard as absurdly high, that on the other hand Americans see the European wealth standard as absurdly low, and uses this information to not derail working conditions discussions with suggestions that violate the premise of sacrificing a third of their income for the last d…

Americans need that extra money to cover higher out-of-pocket healthcare costs. That's not necessarily a reliable indicator of wealth.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#340

Post by willcipriano »

nox101 wrote: post #280
StillBored wrote: post #267

In almost 30 years of software engineering, I came to the conclusion years ago that most deadlines were entirely arbitrary. The business isn't going to fail if you slip a week, or frequently even six months and if it does its probably not the fault of engineering unless its so dysfunctional as to repeatably blow through its own delivery estimates. Sure there are regulatory deadlines, customer POC or delivery deadline…

It depends on the industry. Video games are still sold at retails stores (Target, Best Buy, ...). Those stores have to coordinate what is going to be on their shelves months in advance (6+)? So you promise your game will be ready and in a package and at their loading dock by November 15th. If you miss the deadline their shelf is empty of product since its spot was reserved for you. Other customer electronics have sim…

> months in advance

Finish it, then 6 months later you release.

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