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Mental health in software engineering

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Re: Mental health in software engineering

#241

Post by kccqzy »

sandworm101 wrote: post #212
chollida1 wrote: post #177

I'm not terribly convinced that software engineering is harder on someone mental health than being a doctor, lawyer, sales, engineer, professional athlete, teacher, or any other white collar profession is. All of these have their specific stressors, all of these professions have loads of articles about how people are leaving these professions due to how hard they are. All of these jobs tend to lead to them consuming…

> >You cannot take a sick day by telling your team, “I have mental issues and need a day off.” I'm in an environment (military) were we actively work to prevent this. I have lots of kids (18-20yo) with mental health issues that are not helped by being allowed to take time off so casually. Our mental health experts want to keep people working because having them sit at home drinking/gaming does nothing. I have seen ki…

I agree with you but I think the key point here is "go home tired and then actually sleep" which is not often the case. After a stressful day as a software engineer or other white collar job, your body is not tired. Mentally you might be tired but that just leads to doomscrolling and social media and other dopamine hits. The key point here is that one should ideally be physically tired so that after they go home they want to sleep. This is why, for example, after a stressful day I make my body tired with a long run.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#242

Post by fragmede »

xerxesaa wrote: post #228
surfingdino wrote: post #27

I used to be in (moderate) awe of young college drop-out CEOs. Then I worked for a couple of them. Now I refuse to work for startups that have 20-somethings at the top, because they really do not know how to manage or lead. They are motivated by fear of failure and having accomplished nothing so far they treat others like garbage. Avoid.

In theory, yes. But in practice, is it true? Are Amazon and Oracle better places to work than Facebook and Stripe?

And even then, how do you get valid data on that? My impression is that Amazon is not good to work for; no comment on Stripe, Facebook is good, but it's Facebook. Oracle is good if you want to rest and vest.

But how could we validate this assemblage of opinions about how they are to work at that I've gathered?

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#243

Post by JohnFen »

chollida1 wrote: post #177

I'm not terribly convinced that software engineering is harder on someone mental health than being a doctor, lawyer, sales, engineer, professional athlete, teacher, or any other white collar profession is. All of these have their specific stressors, all of these professions have loads of articles about how people are leaving these professions due to how hard they are. All of these jobs tend to lead to them consuming…

> >You cannot take a sick day by telling your team, “I have mental issues and need a day off.”

> This hurt me to read on behalf of the OP.

Indeed. Taking time off for mental health reasons is no less legitimate than taking time off for physical health reasons.

I've never actually told any bosses that I'm taking a "mental health day" or anything, though. I just take a sick day, because that's what it is.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#244

Post by anal_reactor »

kelsey98765431 wrote: post #221
anal_reactor wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was born in a tiny village in a poor country where local politicians literally banned wifi in schools because apparently "radiowaves cause autism and homosexuality". I'm not joking. This was the official governmental position. In 2017. You can imagine technical literacy of anyone I had contact with as a child, years before that. Today I work as an engineer at a known American corporation, slowly but surely moving u…

War, war never changes. Once you think about what we do as a form of combat, be it sparring in a classroom setting with kid gloves on or an all out bare knuckle street brawl, what we do is a form of grappling combat. You are right about dedicating 100% of your life to be where you are. In my experience in the industry there are two types of developers, those who do it as a job and those who live it as a life. No disr…

> All this to say that your pain and suffering is real and the true payout is just more pain and suffering.

This is what I hate about modern workplace. The society clearly needs people who migrate databases at 3AM, but it never rewards them, instead just squeezes as much juice as possible before moving onto the next young motivated freshman. I'm not talking about financial reward, I'm talking about creating a work environment where migrating the fucking database FEELS rewarding. I truly miss the rush I had at the university when turning in a difficult project I had spent nights on. Instead I get to stare at a poster "remember that HR is there to protect the company from you, we pay you to shut up".

Nowadays I try giving as few fucks as possible, and I'm looking for happiness in other areas of my life, which isn't easy. I'd rather see my passion die than witness it being exploited by the very same people who make me feel misunderstood.

I am very much butthurt about how the society functions but I also realize I cannot do anything about it, so my next goal is to learn how to just relax, do nothing, and be happy about it.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#245

Post by riehwvfbk »

Zenzero wrote: post #237
chollida1 wrote: post #177

I'm not terribly convinced that software engineering is harder on someone mental health than being a doctor, lawyer, sales, engineer, professional athlete, teacher, or any other white collar profession is. All of these have their specific stressors, all of these professions have loads of articles about how people are leaving these professions due to how hard they are. All of these jobs tend to lead to them consuming…

As someone who crossed over from medicine, I can attest that software engineers have it very very good. Appreciate what you have. I accept everyone's personal experiences with bad management, unreasonable timelines, and uninspiring projects, but those things are everywhere. Now add in patients and their families having the worst days of their lives in your presence day after day, high-pressure decision making, not ge…

And at the end of the day this is exactly the attitude that prevents people from asking for a day off. It's wrong in medicine and it's wrong here.

The attitude we should have is: yes, Mr. Successful Boss Man, you are a better human than me: you are more disciplined, don't have a problem with anxiety while dealing with a lot more stress, make more money and even look better. But these facts do absolutely nothing to change that I am crumbling and need a break. If you are so good at dealing with stress - write the software (or stitch up that patient) yourself, surely it would be easy for you, the superhuman?

But we won't do that. Instead we'll pretend we are 10x engineers or genius doctors until we either mess ourselves up, or make a big enough mistake. The realization needed to wake up is: the people pushing us to work harder need us. They actually couldn't have their successful business empire or their big fancy hospital without our work.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#246

Post by waynesonfire »

JohnFen wrote: post #243
chollida1 wrote: post #177

I'm not terribly convinced that software engineering is harder on someone mental health than being a doctor, lawyer, sales, engineer, professional athlete, teacher, or any other white collar profession is. All of these have their specific stressors, all of these professions have loads of articles about how people are leaving these professions due to how hard they are. All of these jobs tend to lead to them consuming…

> >You cannot take a sick day by telling your team, “I have mental issues and need a day off.” > This hurt me to read on behalf of the OP. Indeed. Taking time off for mental health reasons is no less legitimate than taking time off for physical health reasons. I've never actually told any bosses that I'm taking a "mental health day" or anything, though. I just take a sick day, because that's what it is.

I agree and maybe I even take it further. I don't see any need to give a reason or justification. OOO or on vacation is all I say. I'm not a child or asking for permission.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#247

Post by bxguff »

hayst4ck wrote: post #211
bxguff wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

any person earnestly applying a nerd and jock mentality to adult life should find a nice patch of grass to touch and talk to more people

The words are shortcuts for larger more complex ideas about primary motivations and goals. Reward structures learned as children and maturing young adults are definitely going to influence, subconsciously or consciously, adult behavior and understandings about how the world works. Here is Paul Graham using the word "nerd" and talking about the greater more complex idea: https://paulgraham.com/nerds.html

I don't think goals and motivations are a monolith just for people who like computers, or STEM, or who socialize less in high school because 'they didn't want to play the popularity game'. this worldview is reductive, and wholly unaware how growing up is different for everybody. Just be aware before you judge people.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#248

Post by [deleted] »

chollida1 wrote: post #177

I'm not terribly convinced that software engineering is harder on someone mental health than being a doctor, lawyer, sales, engineer, professional athlete, teacher, or any other white collar profession is. All of these have their specific stressors, all of these professions have loads of articles about how people are leaving these professions due to how hard they are. All of these jobs tend to lead to them consuming…

[deleted]

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#249

Post by bitwize »

epiccoleman wrote: post #171
JohnMakin wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the strongest skills as a business facing developer is being able to say no.

https://grugbrain.dev/#grug-on-saying-no > best weapon against complexity spirit demon is magic word: "no" > "no, grug not build that feature" > "no, grug not build that abstraction" > "no, grug not put water on body every day or drink less black think juice you stop repeat ask now" > note, this good engineering advice but bad career advice: "yes" is magic word for more shiney rock and put in charge of large tribe of…

when mysterious packages (new sandals, new animal skins, etc.) keep arriving at cave door for mrs. grug, grug not save very many shiny rock.

also, wolves and sabretooth tigers get hungry, need grooming, need vet, etc. picky about food too, want expensive organic stuff. sometimes mrs. grug buy animal skins for wolves even though they have perfectly fine pelts of their own. and don't get grug started on lil' gruglets (which this grug not have).

then no pile of shiny rock for rainy day, when shiny rock stop coming and cave mortgage is due.

shiny rock very important. get as much shiny rock as can without compromising values. happy mrs. grug = happy grug.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#250

Post by oooyay »

sandworm101 wrote: post #212
chollida1 wrote: post #177

I'm not terribly convinced that software engineering is harder on someone mental health than being a doctor, lawyer, sales, engineer, professional athlete, teacher, or any other white collar profession is. All of these have their specific stressors, all of these professions have loads of articles about how people are leaving these professions due to how hard they are. All of these jobs tend to lead to them consuming…

> >You cannot take a sick day by telling your team, “I have mental issues and need a day off.” I'm in an environment (military) were we actively work to prevent this. I have lots of kids (18-20yo) with mental health issues that are not helped by being allowed to take time off so casually. Our mental health experts want to keep people working because having them sit at home drinking/gaming does nothing. I have seen ki…

> I'm in an environment (military) were we actively work to prevent this.

Are we talking US military here? I think I recognize the pattern you're talking about when you say:

> I have lots of kids (18-20yo) with mental health issues that are not helped by being allowed to take time off so casually. Our mental health experts want to keep people working because having them sit at home drinking/gaming does nothing. I have seen kids actually react well to increased "stress" on the job. Think basic training stuff. They are worked hard, go home tired and then actually sleep. Sending them home not tired leads to drinking and late-night gaming sessions after which they do not sleep and come to work the next day like zombies.

You aren't actively doing anything. You're saturating their day so that they're distracted from whatever underlying problems they face. They're too tired to deal with them so they sleep and repeat. I'd be curious to see your solution play out in the ten years post separation, but the VA may be ahead of you. For context (if you're not American) TAPS is what you take as you separate: https://benefits.va.gov/TRANSITION/docs/pstap-assessment.pdf (Section 4.C should have some relevant quotes).

I remember at some point a Navy Corpsman explaining to me that the goal of Navy medicine isn't to make you better, it's to keep you in fighting shape. Fighting shape doesn't need to be the best or most optimal shape, just enough to do the job the military needs you to do.

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