Jack Ma steps out from the shadows with morale-boosting post • Hacker News Board

Re: Jack Ma steps out from the shadows with morale-boosting post

#121

Post by Log_out_ » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 6:02 AM UTC

nindalf wrote: post #107

nebula8804 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know man, from the outside looking in it seems like despite this arrangement, the people doing the day to day work are fiercely competitive and they want it all. This is just an anecdote but I have seen talks where the Chinese look at the silicon valley grind culture of long working hours and sacrifice and think how can these people be so lazy? Maybe state ownership will collapse it all, maybe the coming demo…

No one doubts that Chinese people work incredibly long hours. They do so because there’s been a strong link between input and output. The harder you work, the wealthier you get. That has been incredibly motivating … so far. In an economy that isn’t growing quite so fast, people might not see the same returns for their labour that they did between 2001-19. They might not work as hard. That’s speculation though. What w…

If a country were a company and Xi the CEO, would that be "ideologically kosher"?

Re: Jack Ma steps out from the shadows with morale-boosting post

#122

Post by Log_out_ » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 6:05 AM UTC

logicchains wrote: post #116

spaceguillotine wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there is zero link between hard work and wealth. There is a link between wealth and exploitation.

If you define hard work as intellectually challenging work, there absolutely is a strong link between hard work and wealth in China. Even the corrupt bureaucrats have to pass a difficult exam to become bureaucrats.

Which one and why is cheating nepotism not as widespread as with everything else? In a company or functioning democracy in competition, if you nepotism, you kill the company..

Re: Jack Ma steps out from the shadows with morale-boosting post

#123

Post by _xnmw » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 6:13 AM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #2

Just going by appearances, the story at the time looked a lot like Jack Ma fleeing the country for a bit. One minute he was disturbing the tranquillity in China then the next he was picking up some Zen among the cherry blossoms. It is interesting to compare-and-contrast Jack Ma and Elon Musk who seems to me the nearest analogue in the US. How their host countries treat them says a lot about the real cultural differen…

I'm not sure it is safe to build wealth anywhere, anymore, although the US is the country I chose to register my company in, because it is probably the safest. Still, I have my reservations. Petty theft like shoplifting is being increasingly normalized and justified in the US (see train package theft), and enforcement of property law is slipping, see how home owners can lose their home to "squatting". This is a very slippery slope which I hope doesn't go the way of the Bolshevik revolution, but anything is possible.

Re: Jack Ma steps out from the shadows with morale-boosting post

#124

Post by seanmcdirmid » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 6:29 AM UTC

jimmydef wrote: post #119

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The future of Chinese tech belongs to companies that are much more fast moving, fearless, and aggressively deep tech than what Alibaba aspires to be. Being all of that is exactly why Jack Ma got beat down by the party. The party doesn't want fast moving, fearless, aggressively deep tech, they want control, compliance, and stability.

I think the main reason alibaba got beat down was because it was moving from "tech" into finance offering unregulated loans and jack ma criticizing regulators did not help at all. And alibaba was not "deep tech", more like derivative tech. It's just a ecommerce site. It takes a lot of technical expertise to operate that at a large scale for sure, but at the end of the day, it's not the kind of fundamental tech free f…

Alibaba is like Amazon, they are known for commerce but have branched out into so many other things, they even have or had a quantum computing effort. Most Chinese companies work under the ask for forgiveness rather than permission creed, because I think that’s how the only way they can do anything at all as the government itself moves slowly, if your project is successful it will be blessed after the fact as always the true way (eg wepay and Alipay started like that). Ma’s mistake was in at least not pretending it wasn’t like that.

Re: Jack Ma steps out from the shadows with morale-boosting post

#125

Post by realusername » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 7:24 AM UTC

rtpg wrote: post #111

amou234 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The future of Chinese tech belongs to companies that are much more fast moving Not at all. The future of Chinese tech is state owned enterprises [1]. Just like other Chinese industries, such as state owned real estates [2] or state run communal restaurants [3]. Just like Soviet Union, before it fell. "The Peterson Institute for International Economics analyzed the market capitalization of China's top 100 companies.…

Aren't you presenting a false dichotomy here? Perhaps they are having their cake and eating it too, so to speak. Not to comment on the supposed economic malaise of the moment. Sometimes state-owned enterprises might be able to outperform a private structure!

> Sometimes state-owned enterprises might be able to outperform a private structure!

They can ... until they don't and there's no market correction in place anymore to keep them in check.

It's going to take another decade to feel this effect but it'll be there in full force.

Re: Jack Ma steps out from the shadows with morale-boosting post

#126

Post by Kbelicius » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 7:27 AM UTC

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #61

Kbelicius wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason why communism is always associated with authoritarianism is mainly the process by which it is introduced: it is impossible that all citizens agree that a state becomes communist All new systems are introduced by force, even capitalism. Do you think that at one point in the past everybody in Britain decided that the state should be capitalist and so everyone, on their own accord, moved from communal land…

As a counter-example, the fall of communism in Eastern bloc was (mostly) a very peaceful process. A notable exception was Romania where the ruler was particularly cruel but in several other countries the system changed without one shot being fired, even though surely there were quite a few proponents of the old regime.

I'd argue that that is not a good counter example. There is a reason why those that implemented the system used in USSR called it state capitalism. So for the factory worker in that regard little did change. The factory just got a new owner. Don't get me wrong, a lot did change, but in this regard little did.

Re: Jack Ma steps out from the shadows with morale-boosting post

#127

Post by gorbypark » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 7:28 AM UTC

dsab wrote: post #82

fancl20 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard they switched to fully use a recommending system for search (don't know how it works today but feels like that's still the case), which means there is there is no real search happening and you query is used as a hint, not a search query (which relativeness matters more). At that time PDD is promoting the idea you buy what they think you will buy. PDD's search is barely functioning at that time and their bussi…

What is PDD?

PDD (PinDuoDuo) is the owner of Temu, which is kinda but not exactly a western version of PDD.

Re: Jack Ma steps out from the shadows with morale-boosting post

#128

Post by Kbelicius » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 7:38 AM UTC

TeaBrain wrote: post #97

ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The institution of whatever came after the fall of communism was done by force, just like the institution that came before it, for the reason you describe: it's impossible to get literally everyone in an entire country to agree on a government, so the government must be imposed by force.

The comment you are referring to wasn't referring to the difficulty in getting everyone to agree on a form of government, but on how it is impossible to create a large-scale communist economic system without imposing it. This is due to how is it necessary to confiscate property in order to redistribute it in a communist system, which naturally has its opponents, as those who have worked for property believe they have…

> The comment you are referring to wasn't referring to the difficulty in getting everyone to agree on a form of government, but on how it is impossible to create a large-scale communist economic system without imposing it. This is due to how is it necessary to confiscate property in order to redistribute it in a communist system

And my original comment clearly shows that capitalism also had to be imposed for what once was communal needed to be confiscated in order to be redistributed.

> Almost all of the Soviet states transitioned to market economy democracies without any conflict at all

Indeed, a state capitalist society transitioned to market capitalism. Nothing needed to be taken from any one person but the state. Not really a new system, just new owners.

Re: Jack Ma steps out from the shadows with morale-boosting post

#129

Post by Kbelicius » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 7:46 AM UTC

nolongerthere wrote: post #72

Kbelicius wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason why communism is always associated with authoritarianism is mainly the process by which it is introduced: it is impossible that all citizens agree that a state becomes communist All new systems are introduced by force, even capitalism. Do you think that at one point in the past everybody in Britain decided that the state should be capitalist and so everyone, on their own accord, moved from communal land…

That's simply false, capitalism is the natural order, people looking out for their own interests and working with others only when both parties agree to. Communism is forced labor/partnership, and requires disappearing all those who don't want to be part of the system and/or using extreme force to get dissidents to comply. Capitalism simply lets those who don't want to participate pave their own way.

What is false? That people were killed and run of their land so that it can be given to private ownership?

Also, what is natural in me owning a factory on the other side of the world when I never left the city I live in?

Re: Jack Ma steps out from the shadows with morale-boosting post

#130

Post by shiroiushi » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 7:56 AM UTC

Turskarama wrote: post #106

amou234 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No state owned enterprises in the history of the world has the quality you've just described - fiercely competitive, nationalistic pride, desperation. China is now Soviet Union, but with horrendous demographics, mind-numbing debt, and wealth flooding out of the country. China is old and broke. China is fucked.

Chinas situation is so incredibly far away from what the Soviet Union was. For one thing they aren't spending the majority of their GDP on a cold war.

They've been massively increasing their defense spending, though you're right, it's not a majority of GDP.

In addition, they've been trying to massively increase their military capacity, but throwing money at it only does so much: you also need young men, and there's not that many that think being in the military is a great idea, and people aren't having kids any more. At least in the old Soviet Union, there was no lack of young men being raised.