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Jack Ma steps out from the shadows with morale-boosting post

reuters.com

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Re: Jack Ma steps out from the shadows with morale-boosting post

#71

Post by hackerlight »

daghamm wrote: post #4
roenxi wrote: post #2

Just going by appearances, the story at the time looked a lot like Jack Ma fleeing the country for a bit. One minute he was disturbing the tranquillity in China then the next he was picking up some Zen among the cherry blossoms. It is interesting to compare-and-contrast Jack Ma and Elon Musk who seems to me the nearest analogue in the US. How their host countries treat them says a lot about the real cultural differen…

China is still ruled by communism, the goverment has a majority share in every company. That's bad for entrepreneurs, but also means that they can have the entire power of CCP behind them. There are tons of example where a small company started by stealing from western competitors then suddenly produced a huge pile of cash out of nowhere to bought those competitors and took over their marketshare in the west.

That's the autocratic Leninist party model, which is what enabled them to defy predictions that economic liberalization would lead to political freedoms.

They are solidly state capitalist since Deng, and since Xi I would classify them as far-right revisionist and even possibly fascist, with a strong focus on order, aesthetic, collective responsibility towards nation, and restoring the homeland, where homeland is defined on ethnonationalist not civic nationalist lines.

Re: Jack Ma steps out from the shadows with morale-boosting post

#72

Post by nolongerthere »

Kbelicius wrote: post #27
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason why communism is always associated with authoritarianism is mainly the process by which it is introduced: it is impossible that all citizens agree that a state becomes communist so it has to be introduced by force. And once you get this power over the lives of all your citizens, you don't want to give it back (which also makes sense because they could overthrow communism). The only societies where communis…

> The reason why communism is always associated with authoritarianism is mainly the process by which it is introduced: it is impossible that all citizens agree that a state becomes communist All new systems are introduced by force, even capitalism. Do you think that at one point in the past everybody in Britain decided that the state should be capitalist and so everyone, on their own accord, moved from communal land…

That's simply false, capitalism is the natural order, people looking out for their own interests and working with others only when both parties agree to. Communism is forced labor/partnership, and requires disappearing all those who don't want to be part of the system and/or using extreme force to get dissidents to comply. Capitalism simply lets those who don't want to participate pave their own way.

Re: Jack Ma steps out from the shadows with morale-boosting post

#73

Post by djtango »

gloryjulio wrote: post #13
daghamm wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is still ruled by communism, the goverment has a majority share in every company. That's bad for entrepreneurs, but also means that they can have the entire power of CCP behind them. There are tons of example where a small company started by stealing from western competitors then suddenly produced a huge pile of cash out of nowhere to bought those competitors and took over their marketshare in the west.

While 'goverment has a majority share in every company' is very likely not true, but CCP does have control over the the companies whenever they want. They would force CCP member into the board and setup CCP organizations within the companies. Anyone who deals with China's companies would need to understand this. You are always dealing with CCP behind it

I know it's not a dichotomy but I think these days I'd take that model over the opposite where behind every politician is a company and with government you are always dealing with companies behind it.

Re: Jack Ma steps out from the shadows with morale-boosting post

#74

Post by amou234 »

throwaway4good wrote: post #10

I was listening to Nicolai Tangen's interview with Alibaba co-founder Joe Tsai: https://www.nbim.no/en/publications/podcast/alibaba-co-found... Alibaba co-founder and Chair: China, Jack Ma, AI and basketball And while smart and sympathetic, I cannot help to think that Alibaba is a company of the past belonging to a time of a certain US-China order that is no more. The future of Chinese tech belongs to companies that…

> The future of Chinese tech belongs to companies that are much more fast moving

Not at all. The future of Chinese tech is state owned enterprises [1]. Just like other Chinese industries, such as state owned real estates [2] or state run communal restaurants [3]. Just like Soviet Union, before it fell.

"The Peterson Institute for International Economics analyzed the market capitalization of China's top 100 companies. It found that the share of total market capitalization held by state-controlled enterprises, in which the government holds a stake of 50% or more, rose to 50% by the end of 2023, the highest proportion in five years"

[1] China's favored state-owned companies squeeze private sector https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Markets/China-s-favored-sta... [2] https://www.reuters.com/world/china/chinas-state-owned-devel... [3] https://www.thinkchina.sg/not-everything-has-be-run-state-th...

Re: Jack Ma steps out from the shadows with morale-boosting post

#75

Post by staplers »

vondur wrote: post #67
daghamm wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is still ruled by communism, the goverment has a majority share in every company. That's bad for entrepreneurs, but also means that they can have the entire power of CCP behind them. There are tons of example where a small company started by stealing from western competitors then suddenly produced a huge pile of cash out of nowhere to bought those competitors and took over their marketshare in the west.

I would argue that the CCP is basically fascist at this point.

Labels like these are arbitrary anyways. It's just about what is explicitly said vs what happens in the shadows.

Take "fines" for example. They are the cost of doing business and never actually dissuade the behavior (in the USA). This in effect allows the government to act as a shareholder (fines = dividends) under the guise of domestic legal enforcement.

Then they turn around and protect the same corporations intellectual and physical property abroad.

Re: Jack Ma steps out from the shadows with morale-boosting post

#76

Post by daliusd »

qsort wrote: post #18
daghamm wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is still ruled by communism, the goverment has a majority share in every company. That's bad for entrepreneurs, but also means that they can have the entire power of CCP behind them. There are tons of example where a small company started by stealing from western competitors then suddenly produced a huge pile of cash out of nowhere to bought those competitors and took over their marketshare in the west.

The CCP is communist like I'm Chinese. They're just run-of-the-mill nationalist authoritarians.

Which communist regime has not been nationalist authoritarian? Yes, in theory it is different thing but somehow in practice it always ends up like this.

Re: Jack Ma steps out from the shadows with morale-boosting post

#77

Post by nebula8804 »

amou234 wrote: post #74
throwaway4good wrote: post #10

I was listening to Nicolai Tangen's interview with Alibaba co-founder Joe Tsai: https://www.nbim.no/en/publications/podcast/alibaba-co-found... Alibaba co-founder and Chair: China, Jack Ma, AI and basketball And while smart and sympathetic, I cannot help to think that Alibaba is a company of the past belonging to a time of a certain US-China order that is no more. The future of Chinese tech belongs to companies that…

> The future of Chinese tech belongs to companies that are much more fast moving Not at all. The future of Chinese tech is state owned enterprises [1]. Just like other Chinese industries, such as state owned real estates [2] or state run communal restaurants [3]. Just like Soviet Union, before it fell. "The Peterson Institute for International Economics analyzed the market capitalization of China's top 100 companies.…

I don't know man, from the outside looking in it seems like despite this arrangement, the people doing the day to day work are fiercely competitive and they want it all. This is just an anecdote but I have seen talks where the Chinese look at the silicon valley grind culture of long working hours and sacrifice and think how can these people be so lazy?

Maybe state ownership will collapse it all, maybe the coming demographic implosion will do it. But it does not seem like your daddy's communism....more like a capitalism-communism fusion that combined with nationalistic pride and a desperation to account for all the over production might lead to surpassing what the soviet union could only dream of.

Re: Jack Ma steps out from the shadows with morale-boosting post

#78

Post by tjpnz »

He gazed up at the enormous face. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark moustache. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.

Re: Jack Ma steps out from the shadows with morale-boosting post

#79

Post by throwaway14356 »

ametrau wrote: post #52
fancl20 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I heard from engineers working for Alibaba, my understanding is that they are fighting with their own bureaucracy structure for quite long time to make any effective decision, at same time facing fierce compitition from JD and PDD. At some stage they released new prodect to compete with PDD every few months while still keep losing in their core e-commerce bussiness till now. All these were before government…

Is that why the search has gone to absolute crap? I’ve switched to Amazon basically for everything I used to get from AE because of the anti search / advertising search. I’d rather pay more and not waste the time.

100 vendors selling the same thing each at a different price but if you search for it you get only one as the 200th result.

I spend many hours trying to make sense of it. Usually I fail and buy elsewhere.

Truly an impressive feet of stupidity.

Someone should do a paid search engine for it. $50 per month seems well worth the preservation of sanity.

Re: Jack Ma steps out from the shadows with morale-boosting post

#80

Post by nebula8804 »

roenxi wrote: post #2

Just going by appearances, the story at the time looked a lot like Jack Ma fleeing the country for a bit. One minute he was disturbing the tranquillity in China then the next he was picking up some Zen among the cherry blossoms. It is interesting to compare-and-contrast Jack Ma and Elon Musk who seems to me the nearest analogue in the US. How their host countries treat them says a lot about the real cultural differen…

Oh yeah the US is so much better, a place where the largest source of bankruptcy is medical bankruptcy, people need to go into massive debt to get a college degree to have any chance of a middle class life and unless you have something that can make the elites even more extremely wealthy than they already are (programmer, engineer) then your chances of getting them to part with any of their wealth is slim to none.

This is such a beautiful life isn't it? Im not saying China is any better, but come on man. Have some empathy for all the people that have been crushed by this system whether its the poor, the people on the receiving end in Gaza/Iraq/Iran/Pakistan/Venezuela or just the people unlucky to not be born at a competitive level.

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