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996 working hour system

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Re: 996 working hour system

#31

Post by TrackerFF »

chihwei wrote: post #28
TrackerFF wrote: post #18

I've always wondered, do these work? As in - is the production of the 996 workers more, less, or equal to those working 40 hour weeks? Did it arise out of some data-driven research, or is it mostly just the result of cargo-culting, where one successful company had such hours/schedule, and the other companies just followed suit?

Go to your Costco or Bestbuy and see how many appliances are Chinese branded and you will know why and how it works.

Dunno how well manual labor translates to intellectual work though.

Re: 996 working hour system

#32

Post by ohnoitsahuman »

dookahku wrote: post #27
chihwei wrote: post #22

This is the reason why Chinese products are beating everyone else, and it's also a reason why we need to impose tariff on Chinese products made by workers in inhumane working conditions, e.g. 996.

how productive can a person bee if they wake up, immediately commute to work, labor for 12 hours(!), and then immediately commute home, sleep?

Very. At least for the first decade.

The say goodby to sanity, family, and hobbies.

Re: 996 working hour system

#33

Post by logicchains »

porphyra wrote: post #12
lvl102 wrote: post #3

And you wonder why China is experiencing brain drain. Rest of world is moving toward 4-day work week and these guys think their citizens are dumb enough to slave away their lives.

It's an East Asian cultural thing to work super hard for some reason, same with Japan, Korea, and Taiwan. By "Rest of the world" you really just mean a handful of Western European nations with stagnant economies, but by god I do wish I could work less.

>By "Rest of the world" you really just mean a handful of Western European nations with stagnant economies

Eastern Europe, the Middle East, South-East Asia, South/Central America and Africa all work much shorter hours than East Asian nations.

Re: 996 working hour system

#34

Post by dookahku »

ohnoitsahuman wrote: post #32
dookahku wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how productive can a person bee if they wake up, immediately commute to work, labor for 12 hours(!), and then immediately commute home, sleep?

Very. At least for the first decade. The say goodby to sanity, family, and hobbies.

I'm dubious about this. I've worked similar schedules and I just didn't see a point in living.

Re: 996 working hour system

#35

Post by emestifs »

LastTrain wrote: post #19
toomuchtodo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.4dayweek.com/casestudies https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39457728 ("HN: 4-day week made permanent for 89% UK firms who took part in Worlds biggest trial") https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/14/countries-that-are-embracing... ("4 countries that are embracing—or experimenting with—the 4-day workweek") https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/companies-around-the-wo... ("Companies around the world adopt four-day…

“Moving towards” was the question.

In Europe I believe you can request an 80% work week, I've seen job posting and heard it second hand. Here's a Swiss example, https://threema.ch/en/jobs#openings of 80-100% jobs

In North America there were and are a number of companies that operate or operated (pre-layoffs etc, ZIRP free money RIP) on a 4 day work week. You can search "4 day companies" and you'll find a list. Some companies still operate on a 4 day week, so it wasn't necessarily a ZIRP-era only thing.

US congress or someone in government proposed a 32 hour work week -- unlikely to be passed of course or get any traction any time soon.

But in general, there's growing mainstream sentiment towards trying and exploring shorter work weeks.

If AI/AI-enabled-capitalists doesn't enslave us, those grandiose promised AI productivity gains may push sentiment further in that direction.

So "moving towards" is a fair description.

Re: 996 working hour system

#36

Post by idontpost »

porphyra wrote: post #12
lvl102 wrote: post #3

And you wonder why China is experiencing brain drain. Rest of world is moving toward 4-day work week and these guys think their citizens are dumb enough to slave away their lives.

It's an East Asian cultural thing to work super hard for some reason, same with Japan, Korea, and Taiwan. By "Rest of the world" you really just mean a handful of Western European nations with stagnant economies, but by god I do wish I could work less.

[dead]

Re: 996 working hour system

#37

Post by smallmancontrov »

chihwei wrote: post #22

This is the reason why Chinese products are beating everyone else, and it's also a reason why we need to impose tariff on Chinese products made by workers in inhumane working conditions, e.g. 996.

Yep. Labor laws that can be bypassed by outsourcing+importing are a complete joke, this was known when they were passed, and the resulting "compromise" reflects the reality of who was actually in charge. We need to fix this, but we'll have the same opponents as we had before, so it will be an uphill battle.

It would be pretty funny to see Capitalist America twist Communist China's arm into un-fucking their labor relations. The irony would be palpable. Alas, this is going to be one hell of a tough sell in Capitalist America precisely because we are Capitalist.

Re: 996 working hour system

#38

Post by hnthrowaway0328 »

KeplerBoy wrote: post #8

I just don't get how knowledge workers can slave away like that. I can be productive for 12-15 hours a day when the conditions are just right, but usually they aren't and after a few hours I need to switch to something less productive than actual coding. Do employers really see any measurable improvement in volume (let alone quality) of output after 30 hours a week?

The trick is, most work doesn't require you to be super productive. For example you could literally sleep through a lengthy meeting.

Re: 996 working hour system

#39

Post by logicchains »

smallmancontrov wrote: post #37
chihwei wrote: post #22

This is the reason why Chinese products are beating everyone else, and it's also a reason why we need to impose tariff on Chinese products made by workers in inhumane working conditions, e.g. 996.

Yep. Labor laws that can be bypassed by outsourcing+importing are a complete joke, this was known when they were passed, and the resulting "compromise" reflects the reality of who was actually in charge. We need to fix this, but we'll have the same opponents as we had before, so it will be an uphill battle. It would be pretty funny to see Capitalist America twist Communist China's arm into un-fucking their labor rela…

> Labor laws that can be bypassed by outsourcing+importing are a complete joke,

All labor laws can be bypassed by importing; it's a natural economic consequence of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factor_price_equalization . Only restrictions on trade can slow the equalisation of wages across two countries.

Re: 996 working hour system

#40

Post by readthenotes1 »

netsharc wrote: post #17
adamgordonbell wrote: post #10

So, I talked to someone who had worked at AliBaba for a bit (Son Luong Ngoc) and learned a lot. Some of the 996 is related to the company campus providing everything at a pretty low cost and a sort of presentism where being around is rewarded. All that plus the jobs are considered great jobs within China, and there is cut-throat performance competition process. Also, I think sleeping at work, taking a nap while waiti…

I feel like the Wikipedia article is demonizing the Chinese companies without enough citations of what they're asserting (I was expecting a lot of citations of how the whole thing is still being practiced in 2024...), while the reality is like what you describe, of presentism and being unproductive for a lot of time...

I'd wager long hours with lots of presentism is more common in human history than Taylorized factory work
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