How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain • Hacker News Board

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#711

Post by Rinzler89 » Mon, Apr 08, 2024, 12:09 PM UTC

data_maan wrote: post #457

Rinzler89 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I trust the Germans to at least be somewhat efficient. They're eficient at creating more bureaucracy as a universal solution to all problems. Having dealt with Germany I have come to realize that excessive bureaucracy is basically a jobs program and a way for people to cover their ass whenever the shit hits the fan. Something goes wrong and you're the big boss? Add more bureaucracy as your attempt to "fix" the probl…

For some reason, _fear_ seems to be an important emotion in Germany that steers the collective. Fear of the boss to be caught with a error on his (hence he adds more bureaucracy), fear of the general public to look racist (hence low policing in high crime area with many foreigners), fear of the case worker to get sued (hence applying the rules literally, to the detriment of the applicant),.etc

Pretty much. I feel like the whole fear drive German conformism comes from the Prussian times where strict hierarchies were enforced and respected, where your superior is always right so don't question it, and the same top-down leadership culture can be seen today in big traditional German corporations.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#712

Post by tietjens » Mon, Apr 08, 2024, 12:17 PM UTC

smarnach wrote: post #528

nicbou wrote: post #114

I document German bureaucracy for a living,[0] and everything is like that. Every life event - immigrating, getting a job, getting married, having a child, buying a car - is mired in slow, paper-based bureaucracy. It is a constant, significant impediment to life in the country. Just last week, I was telling people that the best way to get married in Germany is to get married in Denmark. I cannot overstate how terribl…

I think that's vastly overstating how bad it is. Maybe it's different if you are a German citizen. Just as an example, I never did anything other than signing the contract to get a job. I filled in a single form for each of my two kids when they were born. We got the forms in the hospital and just left them there. Similarly for registering a car -- there was a single simple form.

I disagree. This is not in any way overstating the state of things.

Have you ever changed cities and needed to change Finanzbehörde? Have you ever registered for driving school? Have you ever tried changing from one driving instructor to another? Have you ever got married in a district where there are no appointments for marriage? Have you ever been unable to take your children out of school to attend a family funeral in a different country? Have you ever purchased a car in a State different from the one that you live in? Have you ever had to experience the nightmare of applying for unemployment money? Have you ever tried picking up your child's sick notice without their insurance card, but just only your own ID?

I could go on and on... Not all of these are on the same level of annoyance/senselessness but there are countless more examples. The bureaucracy and stiff insistence on following processes and rules at the expense of common sense are everyday occurrences.

In my experience what is most amazing is how most citizens of this country just accept this and don't find it unusual.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#713

Post by sofixa » Mon, Apr 08, 2024, 12:17 PM UTC

dpeckett wrote: post #645

sofixa wrote: post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It was impossible for my wife to provide an up-to-date (less than six months old) translated copy of her Chinese birth certificate I find this hilarious. It's the same in France, you need an up to date "original" of your birth certificate. But why? It's just saying you (full names) were born in XXX on a specific date. There's nothing about it that could change, really. In the country I'm from, your parents get one…

I actually looked into this, apparently its popular across western Europe (not just Germany) and a relic of historical times when the states didn't have centralized birth and death registries. I believe the limited validity and Apostille requirement is a medieval method to combat fraud. As a new world Australian, the fact this remains in force is completely insane. In Australia the authorities can trivially query the…

> Anyway Biometric passports/ids pretty much completely supersede this use-case and can be as equally decentralized.

Those are already in place in France, but some administrations still ask for a paper original (or scan of original) of your birth certificate. However some others have implemented some government-backed scheme where it automatically fetches your birth records from a government source (idk how it works behind the scenes) and it just works.

It was the same with a proof of where you live, it had to a be a bill in your name for electricity or something similar, but now it can just query popular sources such as the main electricity provider and just work.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#714

Post by theshrike79 » Mon, Apr 08, 2024, 12:19 PM UTC

throw__away7391 wrote: post #623

theshrike79 wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the idea here is that you can't just "declare bankruptcy" in Germany, it's a Process with checks and balances.

The US concept of bankruptcy is basically unimaginable in most (all?) of Europe. There's an old movie, The Edukators, where one of the protagonist is effectively broke and working a low wage job but has spent years already and has many years more left to pay off a debt she incurred by accidentally crashing into an expensive car without insurance. This situation is basically impossible in the US where the term "uncoll…

But on the flip side, Breaking Bad would've never happened anywhere in Europe - because "crippling medical debt" just is not a thing =)

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#715

Post by mhitza » Mon, Apr 08, 2024, 12:19 PM UTC

chironjit wrote: post #200

freyfogle wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh for sure it could be much better in Germany, and I hope that rapidly becomes the case. Definitely digitization needs to come faster. My complaint is simply people imagining it is perfect elsewhere. Really that is not the case, no where is perfect. All the people chiming in about the US being so easy, yes, wonderful. Now let's talk about healthcare and how your health insurance is tied to your employer. Everyone wh…

You're missing the point here. It's bad, and it affects people's lives. It also fuels populist sentiment because people blame immigrants for problems not entirely related to them. Worse still, if a german says fuck it and wants to run his business in Estonia, the org still has to pay taxes in germany The only silver lining to all this are Spaniards, Greeks, etc say the system here is better than in their country, but…

> Worse still, if a german says fuck it and wants to run his business in Estonia, the org still has to pay taxes in germany

Why? Doesn't Germany have treaties with Estonia to avoid double taxation?

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#716

Post by PurpleRamen » Mon, Apr 08, 2024, 12:22 PM UTC

sliq wrote: post #346

chironjit wrote: post #185

Having lived here for 1.5 years, I can say that beraucracy in germany basically works in the sense of how bureaucracy in other lesser third world countries work. Basically, the system works in general for the average population but is broken such that it affects most those at the margins (for example, the rich, the poor, those entrepreneurial, etc). In other countries, when this happens, you see the rich paying their…

brilliant comment! also, the average population doesnt know better, as they dont have a reason/possibility to compare, so they think THIS is the best possible solution.

> so they think THIS is the best possible solution.

Nobody thinks that. Everybody knows how much bureaucracy sucks, and everyone regularly rages about the insanity and traps. There are whole TV-Shows about the bullshit done there. But people can't change it, so they just accept it, and know it could be worse.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#717

Post by krsdcbl » Mon, Apr 08, 2024, 12:24 PM UTC

nicbou wrote: post #114

I document German bureaucracy for a living,[0] and everything is like that. Every life event - immigrating, getting a job, getting married, having a child, buying a car - is mired in slow, paper-based bureaucracy. It is a constant, significant impediment to life in the country. Just last week, I was telling people that the best way to get married in Germany is to get married in Denmark. I cannot overstate how terribl…

If u really wanna have "worst of all worlds" though, i can only recommend Austria.

Basically it's the German-grade paper bureaucracy described here, but spiced up with a truckload of what i would describe as "negative global southern stereotypes":

- Everything has to be strictly processed by the book, but ... - "the book" closes Friday at noon, no wait, today it was 10:00, come by next month, we only process such requests on the first friday of the month. Oh wait, Mrs Soandso is on vacation next month, would June suit you? - the one managing "the book" doesn't like your face/surname/tone/something? You might wanna try another city ...

In short: it's all strict and utterly beaucratic like you'd expect in Germany, but at the same time ripe with small time corruption, incompetence, and petty xenophobia

(Small anecdote: I actually once had to get a lawyer to register a company, since the person responsible for my file at the business court thought my surname was sounding a bit too "foreign" and demanding I present a valid staying permit -- which I do not need (and therefore couldn't even get) in Austria. Straight up refused to process my filing until my lawyer requested a legal statement in writing)

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#718

Post by tietjens » Mon, Apr 08, 2024, 12:24 PM UTC

My biggest complaint about German bureaucracy (reflected indirectly in some comments here) is that there is an insistence on following the rules, even while there are SO many rules and laws that officials very often give you wrong, incorrect, misleading answers.

I see this over and over and over again.

If you hit a bureaucratic wall in Germany you often can get over it, not by paying money like in some countries, but by paying with time from your own short life, and with your nerves trying to bend the system to your will. Is it worth it? No. Not in my opinion.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#719

Post by EZ-E » Mon, Apr 08, 2024, 12:27 PM UTC

Rinzler89 wrote: post #162

Biganon wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I refuse to believe it is worse than France. I trust the Germans to at least be somewhat efficient.

>I trust the Germans to at least be somewhat efficient. They're eficient at creating more bureaucracy as a universal solution to all problems. Having dealt with Germany I have come to realize that excessive bureaucracy is basically a jobs program and a way for people to cover their ass whenever the shit hits the fan. Something goes wrong and you're the big boss? Add more bureaucracy as your attempt to "fix" the probl…

> Something goes wrong and you're the big boss? Add more bureaucracy as your attempt to "fix" the problem and your justification to why your job is valuable to the company.

This literally applies to big orgs as well with red tape, etc

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#720

Post by Symbiote » Mon, Apr 08, 2024, 12:28 PM UTC

miningape wrote: post #572

Symbiote wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Denmark is the same. The official website says the wait time for permanent residency is "up to 10 months", and searching Reddit suggests 3-6 months is more normal. Denmark is not particularly welcoming to immigrants, but they do with rules rather than inefficient paperwork.

Hell no. I applied for citizenship over a year ago now and no communication has been made with me. I'm also not sure where this "up to 10 months" is coming from because when I applied (and recently checked) it says "over 2 years". On top of that I'm not sure what reddit you're looking at, but the ones I'm looking at are constantly complaining about how long the process is taking - how they expected it in 2022 and are…

It says 10 months here: https://www.nyidanmark.dk/de-DE/You-want-to-apply/Permanent-...

Citizenship is not the same thing as permanent residence.