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How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

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Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#181

Post by brnt »

Biganon wrote: post #155
nicbou wrote: post #114

I document German bureaucracy for a living,[0] and everything is like that. Every life event - immigrating, getting a job, getting married, having a child, buying a car - is mired in slow, paper-based bureaucracy. It is a constant, significant impediment to life in the country. Just last week, I was telling people that the best way to get married in Germany is to get married in Denmark. I cannot overstate how terribl…

I refuse to believe it is worse than France. I trust the Germans to at least be somewhat efficient.

I've worked in both, plus the Netherlands. France has one forgiving element: usually some room for the human element. Germans civil servants seem happy to apply rules and procedures, even if they are clearly suboptimal. French civil servants would agree it's ridiculous and are more inclined to help you get unstuck if you can show them that you are.

France also seemed further along digitizing things.

Total duration is probably still a tie: it's all over the map but things can take ages in either country.

The Netherlands is great, except when it isn't. If you ever get stuck there, you have no chance convincing anyone. Their believe they have the best (civil) service doesn't help, but it turns out its all highly optimized for 'normal' Dutch citizens. As soon as your deviations from that norm start to add up, you're going to run into unhandled edge cases, which people won't handle (no protocol, and they are not used to using their own brain). "Computer says no" is Dutch (civil) service in a nutshell.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#182

Post by nickpp »

zettabomb wrote: post #153
nicbou wrote: post #114

I document German bureaucracy for a living,[0] and everything is like that. Every life event - immigrating, getting a job, getting married, having a child, buying a car - is mired in slow, paper-based bureaucracy. It is a constant, significant impediment to life in the country. Just last week, I was telling people that the best way to get married in Germany is to get married in Denmark. I cannot overstate how terribl…

Oh hey there! I've just moved to Germany from the US (not Berlin but hey, easy enough to apply the general knowledge elsewhere) and your site has been fantastic. Obviously I did not move because I valued bureaucracy, but I'm willing to put up with it partly for a fantastic job, and partly to escape the horror that is modern America. Thank you so much!

I am curious: what specific horror of modern America are you escaping?

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#183

Post by PurpleRamen »

robert_foss wrote: post #67
TillE wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany loves endless bureaucratic paperwork which absolutely must be done in person (and good luck getting an appointment in Berlin), despite the many years of bleating about Digitalisierung which has apparently amounted to nothing.

From what I heard the cut the public funding for Digitalization by 90% last year. It truly is like going into a a -20yr time machine living here. Soon you'll be able to use a credit card in most shops even!

> From what I heard the cut the public funding for Digitalization by 90% last year.

This is basically wrong. They moved the budgets to different departments, where it made more sense. And it actually does move on..slowly. It's basically a living example of too many technical debts and the pains of federalism gone wrong.

> Soon you'll be able to use a credit card in most shops even!

Real credit cards are very uncommon in Germany. Debit cards on the other hand are working well everywhere, even in small shops (since the pandemia to be fair).

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#184

Post by fleshmonad »

whalesalad wrote: post #170
nicbou wrote: post #114

I document German bureaucracy for a living,[0] and everything is like that. Every life event - immigrating, getting a job, getting married, having a child, buying a car - is mired in slow, paper-based bureaucracy. It is a constant, significant impediment to life in the country. Just last week, I was telling people that the best way to get married in Germany is to get married in Denmark. I cannot overstate how terribl…

What are the redeeming qualities of Germany?

Note that I am a German. I would say there are few. Bad education, especially in schools, a broken railway and public transport system, as well as incredibly high taxes. You may say "free healthcare" and a point can be made here, but when you take a look at the high taxes you have to pay, it's not worth it, if your income is above average. All in all it's a mess and I haven't even begun speaking about German people and their mentality, as well as poverty and unsuccessful immigration.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#185

Post by chironjit »

Having lived here for 1.5 years, I can say that beraucracy in germany basically works in the sense of how bureaucracy in other lesser third world countries work.

Basically, the system works in general for the average population but is broken such that it affects most those at the margins (for example, the rich, the poor, those entrepreneurial, etc).

In other countries, when this happens, you see the rich paying their way to access while the poor generally suffer until some populist movement comes and promises to save them.

It's thus really not that surprising, I just had yo change my view on where I placed each country in this developed/developing country mental model

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#186

Post by mtsr »

nicbou wrote: post #157
Biganon wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I refuse to believe it is worse than France. I trust the Germans to at least be somewhat efficient.

Germans are anything but efficient. At best, they're methodical. Speaking from experience, that is also a lie.

They’re not know for efficiency or being methodical, but for gründlichkeit - being meticulous.

Then again, anything like this is a stereotype.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#187

Post by miohtama »

nicbou wrote: post #114

I document German bureaucracy for a living,[0] and everything is like that. Every life event - immigrating, getting a job, getting married, having a child, buying a car - is mired in slow, paper-based bureaucracy. It is a constant, significant impediment to life in the country. Just last week, I was telling people that the best way to get married in Germany is to get married in Denmark. I cannot overstate how terribl…

Get married in Denmark: This not a joke, but my friends did it (German woman, Indian husband). It Germany it would have taken two weeks. In Denmark you get it done in an hour (minus the booking of the time at the civil registry).

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#188

Post by chironjit »

nicbou wrote: post #171
hariharan_uno wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree. I have been living here for 8 years, and recently applied for a permanent settlement permit. My application went into a blackhole for more than 4 months, while my existing permit expired, essentially making me a prisoner here (I can stay and work in Germany but if I travel internationally, I won't be allowed entry back). Meanwhile, my applications for a temporary travel permit were unanswered for…

Mine too! My residence permit expired in February, and my appointment is in July. I expect to have a valid residence title again by end of August. Mind you, I applied in December. I will not be able to travel out of the country for most of the summer as I wouldn't be allowed to reenter. They refused multiple times to issue the temporary permit that I'm legally entitled to. I'm having a lawyer ask again, this time wit…

I'll one up you and say that it's so broken, there are lots of people that basically live on ranges of exceptions.

In my case, I was told I was not eligible for the visa I needed but when I spoke to a migration consultant who knew the process, they managed to get it done. I was pretty shocked as this wink, wink, nod, nod style system is not something I expected from this country.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#189

Post by 4ad »

nicbou wrote: post #129
freyfogle wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really I think this is overdone. I fully appreciate Berlin is disfunctional, but in other regions (I live in Thüringen) things go quite quickly.

I don't think that it is overdone. It's bad everywhere, and it's much worse in Berlin. If you've experienced anything like a modern bureaucracy, Germany is infuriatingly backwards. The article is painfully accurate down to the minute detail.

As bad as Germany is, it is better than average. Eastern Europe is harder, and Asia borders on impossible. Africa is literally impossible.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#190

Post by aleph_minus_one »

nicbou wrote: post #157
Biganon wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I refuse to believe it is worse than France. I trust the Germans to at least be somewhat efficient.

Germans are anything but efficient. At best, they're methodical. Speaking from experience, that is also a lie.

> Germans are anything but efficient.

Germans are (rather) efficient. The German bureacracy isn't. :-)

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