How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain • Hacker News Board

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#451

Post by redrove » Mon, Apr 08, 2024, 7:02 AM UTC

weinzierl wrote: post #400

As a German I agree with the gist: Germany is overly buerocratic and not startup friendly. When it comes to founding a company the author overcomplicates things, however. This is OK when you want to study the process, or want to become an expert in this and maybe make a business out of it. If you just want a company get started, just buy a ready made one. There are specialized lawyers that always keep a pool of fresh…

This is such a cop out.

You shouldn’t complain about the process of incorporating and buy a ready made one?! This is just encouraging middlemen and lessening pressure on the government to actually work for your money!

I’m guessing you’ve never tried incorporating in a country where it actually makes sense and you can get going for cheap in a matter of days.

L.E.: Having worked with germans and german companies for a long time, I think this permanent mentality of making up excuses for why rules are this way (they must be Perfekt!) and blaming the people trying to follow them for not doing it right is one of the key things that’s holding you all back.

I’ve bickered so many times with germans and their bureaucracy in company processes, after years and years I just decided to give up (I was never going to make any difference, just hurt my own sanity) and I try to avoid german companies now.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#452

Post by earthnail » Mon, Apr 08, 2024, 7:04 AM UTC

RamblingCTO wrote: post #425

MrJohz wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Truly the worst thing about living in Germany is the apparent national hobby of complaining about things that perhaps aren't great, but really aren't as bad as you might think. In practice, German schools are pretty decent, but they obsess about PISA scores and so neglect to ever notice what the schools are doing well. The train networks are fairly extensive, can be quite cheap depending on how you travel, and consis…

I disagree heavily. Just because you have trains going everywhere (that's not a Germany-specific thing) doesn't mean they are allowed to be hours late. The transport system is broken, was destroyed by trying to cut costs in the past. Same with schools and educators. And don't get me started on healthcare. Your sentiment is part of the problem to be honest: Germans are always complaining, it's fine as it is bla bla. I…

For what it’s worth, I’m German and live in Sweden and the train network is significantly worse than in Germany.

There are serious structural deficiencies at Deutsche Bahn, absolutely. But the gras is also always greener elsewhere. The nordics don’t have a better train network.

It’s bad enough in Sweden that a Chinese company has started offering the MTRX, basically the ICE equivalent between the two largest cities (although much slower, more like an IC) and that’s the best connection you can get. Imagine the outcry if that was the case in Germany for Munich-Berlin…

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#453

Post by jasonkester » Mon, Apr 08, 2024, 7:04 AM UTC

weinzierl wrote: post #400

As a German I agree with the gist: Germany is overly buerocratic and not startup friendly. When it comes to founding a company the author overcomplicates things, however. This is OK when you want to study the process, or want to become an expert in this and maybe make a business out of it. If you just want a company get started, just buy a ready made one. There are specialized lawyers that always keep a pool of fresh…

I find that Europe often has things like this. That is, the “easy way” that everyone uses.

The frustrating thing is that there is no way of learning about it until you’ve already endured months of pain trying to follow the impossible steps outlined on the official government website.

If that site had a little notice on top saying “Stop! Nobody does it this way! Google this term instead”, that would save a lot of pain.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#454

Post by lifestyleguru » Mon, Apr 08, 2024, 7:05 AM UTC

makeitdouble wrote: post #296

hariharan_uno wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree. I have been living here for 8 years, and recently applied for a permanent settlement permit. My application went into a blackhole for more than 4 months, while my existing permit expired, essentially making me a prisoner here (I can stay and work in Germany but if I travel internationally, I won't be allowed entry back). Meanwhile, my applications for a temporary travel permit were unanswered for…

As far as I know, it's par for the course for immigration in most countries I ever heard of. On the other hand, anyone who heard of consistently nice immigration procedure for normal people (not Messi) should chime in. From a incentive strucutre POV, they lose nothing from false positives (denying entry to someone who would have been fine) as candidates will probably try again anyway, and no one will come after them…

The entire second paragraph is negative selection. Some countries like Germany, Switzerland, US are highly desirable but there is no reason to be so arrogant about it. This way e.g. Germany chased away entire generation of millennials from post-Communist countries. Now Germany is receiving the profile of immigrants they deserve - they have a handful of passports and diplomas each, and most are forged.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#455

Post by redrove » Mon, Apr 08, 2024, 7:07 AM UTC

theshrike79 wrote: post #369

ProjectArcturis wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a customer (UK Ltd) who declared bankruptcy owing us a money and then then next day founded a new Ltd company and tried to act like he didn't owe us the money because it was a new entity. That is... how bankruptcy works? He literally didn't owe you money anymore. Obviously you shouldn't extend his new company credit, but extinguishing old debts is the exact purpose of bankruptcy.

I think the idea here is that you can't just "declare bankruptcy" in Germany, it's a Process with checks and balances.

Your comment is a bit tongue in cheek: it’s a process with checks and balances everywhere in the developed world, and scams aren’t common at all.

You’re insinuating that due to the bureaucracy Germany is somehow better at this; it is not, it’s just more inefficient.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#456

Post by throwaway220033 » Mon, Apr 08, 2024, 7:07 AM UTC

Germany is a cult, not country.

The whole system is designed for slavery. Never question anything here, just obey the rules, give up your individuality and live without a soul.

The new European way of freedom is not building your own life; you must let government take care of you, and in return you do what they ask. The best part is they think they are free and afraid of their privacy.

If freedom is not thinking for yourself and building your life, then what it is? The answer is; partying, drugs, alcohol, orgies. And complaining about other countries issues. Textbook cult patterns.

German news are full of other countries’ problems, they will discuss racism in US for weeks and months meanwhile Nazis are burning Turkish families once a year alive, murdering ordinary people. You’ll see how they write the softest article about burning immigrants alive in 2024 their own country but they will happily go out to the streets and protest for US or Ukraine.

How are you going to convince any immigrants to live here and work with you? None of the immigrants who live here say good things about Germany or Germans.

Investment scene is also pretty much depends on your race. Unless you’re already profitable or white european, they won’t fund your startup. They rather fund some grow-carrot-in-balcony startups instead of investing in your company.

I’m hoping to get out of this shit show soon and almost everybody around me consider the same.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#457

Post by data_maan » Mon, Apr 08, 2024, 7:07 AM UTC

Rinzler89 wrote: post #162

Biganon wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I refuse to believe it is worse than France. I trust the Germans to at least be somewhat efficient.

>I trust the Germans to at least be somewhat efficient. They're eficient at creating more bureaucracy as a universal solution to all problems. Having dealt with Germany I have come to realize that excessive bureaucracy is basically a jobs program and a way for people to cover their ass whenever the shit hits the fan. Something goes wrong and you're the big boss? Add more bureaucracy as your attempt to "fix" the probl…

For some reason, _fear_ seems to be an important emotion in Germany that steers the collective.

Fear of the boss to be caught with a error on his (hence he adds more bureaucracy), fear of the general public to look racist (hence low policing in high crime area with many foreigners), fear of the case worker to get sued (hence applying the rules literally, to the detriment of the applicant),.etc

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#458

Post by data_maan » Mon, Apr 08, 2024, 7:08 AM UTC

Tainnor wrote: post #381

nicbou wrote: post #114

I document German bureaucracy for a living,[0] and everything is like that. Every life event - immigrating, getting a job, getting married, having a child, buying a car - is mired in slow, paper-based bureaucracy. It is a constant, significant impediment to life in the country. Just last week, I was telling people that the best way to get married in Germany is to get married in Denmark. I cannot overstate how terribl…

Other people have already written this, but Berlin is not a good representation for Germany as a whole. It has been known for decades within Germany for having a dysfunctional government structure and administration (due in part to unclear division of responsibilities between districts and the city). Elsewhere in Germany, bureaucracy tends to be tedious but functional. The neglicence of the state of Berlin is actuall…

Could you tell us the lawyer please?

I'd need someone who is well-versed in "talking". (Feel free to dm via my email.)

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#459

Post by csomar » Mon, Apr 08, 2024, 7:08 AM UTC

callalex wrote: post #235

hariharan_uno wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree. I have been living here for 8 years, and recently applied for a permanent settlement permit. My application went into a blackhole for more than 4 months, while my existing permit expired, essentially making me a prisoner here (I can stay and work in Germany but if I travel internationally, I won't be allowed entry back). Meanwhile, my applications for a temporary travel permit were unanswered for…

From a USA perspective, I find that usually when a bureaucratic process is hopelessly broken, it is because a small portion of the population actively hates the people that would benefit from the process and want to harm them. However they cannot legally or popularly discriminate against them so instead they destroy the processes that benefit the hated group. Do you get that impression where you are too?

Sure. But why accept these people in the first place? I think if there was a consensus, then they would not be accepted. The US is not shy to refuse them entry or to concentrate camp them somewhere. The reality is that there is two factions; one is for and one is against. So you are in for a wild ride.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#460

Post by fps_doug » Mon, Apr 08, 2024, 7:09 AM UTC

chironjit wrote: post #188

nicbou wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mine too! My residence permit expired in February, and my appointment is in July. I expect to have a valid residence title again by end of August. Mind you, I applied in December. I will not be able to travel out of the country for most of the summer as I wouldn't be allowed to reenter. They refused multiple times to issue the temporary permit that I'm legally entitled to. I'm having a lawyer ask again, this time wit…

I'll one up you and say that it's so broken, there are lots of people that basically live on ranges of exceptions. In my case, I was told I was not eligible for the visa I needed but when I spoke to a migration consultant who knew the process, they managed to get it done. I was pretty shocked as this wink, wink, nod, nod style system is not something I expected from this country.

This sounds like all of you are living in Berlin, which is known as "failed state" to the rest of Germany. ;-)

It varies form city to city, I live in one that I'd say is an exception on the positive side: Most clerks in the various offices are actually helpful and even giving you hints. I had to renew my passport in January and got an appointment the next day. I got the appointment online(!) in Germany(!!). Passport could be collected 4 weeks later. Meanwhile an ex-colleague who lives in Berlin had to wrestle with his nearest office to even get an appointment for a passport renewal, then gave up and made an appointment with the office in the neighboring district, where it was still a 4 weeks wait. He told me there are districts where it takes up to 6 months.

I guess if you want pain and suffering, move to Berlin. :o)