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Infant microbes and metabolites point to childhood neurodevelopmental disorders

medicalxpress.com

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Re: Infant microbes and metabolites point to childhood neurodevelopmental disorders

#41

Post by Aurornis »

CitizenKane wrote: post #33

I'd like to add a little bit of water to this particular fire. I'm autistic and I've read numerous studies along this vein. In short, yes there's a strong link between gut flora and brain development however autism (and presumably ADHD) is a heterogeneous condition with a variety of interrelated causes. Personally, I can say that this likely is a proximate cause for me as I got a bad staph infection at just a few mon…

> Personally, I can say that this likely is a proximate cause for me as I got a bad staph infection at just a few months old and naturally I was treated by antibiotics.

Being treated with antibiotics in infancy is extremely common.

It’s especially problematic right now in some countries where antibiotics are available over the counter, as it’s common practice in some groups to treat every childhood illness with antibiotics. The amount of antibiotic abuse happening in some countries right now is absolutely astounding.

Even in countries like the United States some parents will present to doctors and demand antibiotics for nearly every illness. The medical system here is, in general, better at withholding them from demanding parents when children show no cause for antibiotic use. It’s actually one of the bigger problems that pediatricians face with feedback and bad reviews, though that’s another story.

That said, I wouldn’t ascribe anything in particular to antibiotic use as a child. It’s rare to go through all of childhood without any exposure to antibiotics.

Re: Infant microbes and metabolites point to childhood neurodevelopmental disorders

#42

Post by Ozzie_osman »

sparrish wrote: post #16
Ozzie_osman wrote: post #3

The antibiotic link is really alarming. Growing up in a country where antibiotics are basically prescribed for any illness, my mom refused to administer it to us unless there was an emergency. Clearly she had some foresight. I find it a tough choice for my own kids. For example, if they have an ear infection, you could try waiting it out, and sometimes they can get better on their own, but it's riskier and might be l…

I'm having a hard time believing in the antibiotic link. I've spent quite a bit of time in various parts of South America where antibiotics are available without prescription and from what I've seen, used for every fever and sniffle for 40 years+ now. I'm not seeing generations of Autistic and ADHD people there. If the antibiotic link was true, wouldn't it be worse there?

I dont have any proof either way, but you're assuming it's the only factor. It could be a mix of antibiotic and diet, or antibiotic and lack of exposure to other germs.

Re: Infant microbes and metabolites point to childhood neurodevelopmental disorders

#43

Post by viciousvoxel »

empressplay wrote: post #24
janalsncm wrote: post #17

I wonder how two identical twins with the same DNA might not both have autism. If it is environmental, having different gut flora seems more like an effect rather than a root cause since twin babies are usually given identical foods. I think it would be really ironic if the cure for autism was a vaccine though.

My partner and I, from two different continents and two vastly different ecosystems, both come from generationally autistic families. So excuse my skepticism. Yes, gut flora is definitely disrupted in people with ASD. But it's a real long stretch to suggest it's the cause.

I also think there is probably not a single cause for either ASD or ADHD -- there is probably both a genetic component and an environmental component involved. At the same time, it's very hard to tease these things apart, especially with whether the microbiome plays a role because that too is significantly hereditary.

Re: Infant microbes and metabolites point to childhood neurodevelopmental disorders

#46

Post by caseyy »

The gut flora-brain link is always tenuous and indirect.

But I think there are many ways one would affect the other. Stress affects the sympathetic neural system, limiting vasodilation in the gut, reducing the immune system’s cell access to the gut, and so on. While chronic gut inflammation will affect vascular health in the brain through the humoral response. These are just two pathways.

It seems like inter-cellar signalling to hormonal signalling will always be ridiculously opaque and complex in a macro scale. Everything has an impact on most other things in the body. Scrape a knee today, feel more anxiety stepping on a skateboard tomorrow, and worse digestion later in the day.

It might take non-human intelligence to make sense of it all. Until then, everything is correlated.

Maybe many mental health issues have contributing factors that involve feedback loops between the brain and other somatic tissues and organs. Probably. To what extent do what specific somatic issues cause mental health problems is the more pertinent question.

Re: Infant microbes and metabolites point to childhood neurodevelopmental disorders

#47

Post by wfme »

empressplay wrote: post #31
calibas wrote: post #21

Remember the study that said autism and ADHD are linked to acetaminophen use during pregnancy? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9385573/ Well it turns out that "Acetaminophen during bacterial colonization of the naïve gut is associated with lasting alterations in childhood microbiome composition": https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9367926/

...except that my mother never used Tylenol during her pregnancy with me and I'm absolutely ASD. I'm not saying these things don't have an influence on severity or presentation of ASD. But they are certainly not the root cause(s).

I don't think anyone is saying that a mother needs to take acetaminophen for their child to have ASD, just that there is an association between a mother taking acetaminophen and their child having ASD.

It seems that the cause of the connection is/was not known, but there is evidence that acetaminophen during pregnancy has an impact on the child's microbiome, and now the study this post is on points to a connection between an altered microbiome and ASD.

There are no doubt many other things done during pregnancy that can also affect the child's microbiome, but this connection is no less interesting given how freely acetaminophen is taken.

Re: Infant microbes and metabolites point to childhood neurodevelopmental disorders

#48

Post by andxor_ »

pfisch wrote: post #40
richrichie wrote: post #28

I am a parent of a kid on ASD. We did this 10 years ago. There was a Dr Boch who was popular for this and there have been parents and doctors talking about this for a long time (and were dismissed as kooks). If there weren’t for the big pharma industrial complex and modern liberals’ unconditional support for big pharma, we would also be talking and studying more about vaccine induced autism.

There is no group other than "big pharma" that has been successfully finding cures to serious medical conditions. There is no group other than "big pharma" that has massively extended average life expectancy over the past 100+ years. It is insane that there is such a large group of people trying to drag us back to the past where snakeoil salesmen sold fake medicine and basically every aspect of our collective health…

There is also no group other than big pharma that have paid as much criminal fines in the history of commerce. So instead of cultivating a religious faith in whatever they are pushing, be skeptical and do some due diligence.

Re: Infant microbes and metabolites point to childhood neurodevelopmental disorders

#49

Post by pfisch »

andxor_ wrote: post #48
pfisch wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no group other than "big pharma" that has been successfully finding cures to serious medical conditions. There is no group other than "big pharma" that has massively extended average life expectancy over the past 100+ years. It is insane that there is such a large group of people trying to drag us back to the past where snakeoil salesmen sold fake medicine and basically every aspect of our collective health…

There is also no group other than big pharma that have paid as much criminal fines in the history of commerce. So instead of cultivating a religious faith in whatever they are pushing, be skeptical and do some due diligence.

I doubt that. I think banks have probably paid more, and I don't think it is even close.

https://www.enzuzo.com/blog/biggest-compliance-fines

Pharma is a massive sector of the economy though, partially because it has delivered so many miracles. Of course there are bad actors in such a large part of the economy, but the idea that there is some better alternative we should turn to is not supported by any evidence at all.

Re: Infant microbes and metabolites point to childhood neurodevelopmental disorders

#50

Post by jmward01 »

The study implies antibiotics but I don't see that data. Am I missing it? There is discussion of data connecting future diagnosis with early antibiotics, but nothing that clearly shows that is causal. I think there is a discussion to be had about the possibility that ADHD and autism increase the risk of other conditions that may then require more antibiotics. I'd like to see a more detailed study trying to tease correlation/causation out before making a statement like `The findings suggest links to immunodysregulation and metabolism, compounded by ... antibiotics`
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