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'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

972mag.com

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Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#951

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please stop spreading nonsensical, thoroughly debunked claims such as rape.

Rapes have been officially recognized as having happened by the UN, i don’t see how that is hard to believe given Hamas filmed most of their atrocities on GoPros. Oct 7 was a brutal terror campaign regardless of your position on the conflict, denying that is absurd > Following a mission lasting just over two weeks, the UN team found 'reasonable grounds to believe' that 'rape and gang rape' took place during the attac…

Read the report - there is zero evidence of rape that hasn't been thoroughly debunked. That "reasonable grounds" line was apparently added to placate Israel by the report's author (who has a history with Israel).

Even the NYT now admits (albeit quietly) that their "expose" contains no evidence.

And, as I'm sure you know, there are exactly zero videos showing rape. Quite frankly, I find it incredible that some people still believe the atrocity propaganda, even when it's so obvious and of such poor quality.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#952
post #950

And how did Hamas decide whom to target on October the 7th? Probably not by an AI. But was the result therefor more "human"?

You're right. Hamas and Israel are very similar, and basically at the same level of criminal behavior. But I don't think that was the point you wanted to make. I guess for you it's more humane to just bomb people but it turns out that the people who die in Gaza are just as human as those who died in October 7. It's hard to believe for Israelis since they have been killing thousands of Palestinians for decades now, but their lives aren't inherently worth less than those of Israelis.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#953

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's Israel. It's also why no western country has ever really officially condemned Israel no matter what they do. They are on "our side" so it's okay. And those civilians kind of deserved it anyways or something, and we can just trust every single word the IDF says and use them as an actual source to pretend the IDF isn't into mass civilian murder. The only thing that made this time a bit different is the cra…

This is what I found the most shocking and disheartening in the first days after the October 7th massacre and the start of indiscriminate bombing of Gaza - the reaction and inaction of the West. At the moment of the Russian invasion, so many countries banded together in supporting Ukraine, both in materiel and moral support. Russia became a pariah overnight. It was an awful situation but it was uplifting to see how w…

There is absolutely no equivalence between Ukraine and Gaza, in fact, it is disguising to suggest as much.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#954

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Norway it is rather the other way: We all know (if we stop and think) that a person can be both a teacher and a terrorist. But according to media here almost every victim except top Hamas brass seems to be referred to by their whatever else they were besides terrorists and the terrorists (or even just soldier) part get hushed down.

Can you site an example of this please? It's contradictory to my understanding of what is happening. By that, I mean, when the few remaining police left in Northern Gaza, who had reported to be critical to providing security for aid deliveries (and involved in coordination with Israel) where assassinated recently by Israel, and claimed as high ranking Hamas targets it pretty much cemented my opinion that nothing is t…

The person you're debating with is not interested in genuine debate. Look at their profile - it's an alt account for their religious dogma they're too embarrassed to associate with their public persona.

That is backed by them refusing to answer you with specific examples, engaging in a gish-gallop instead.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#955
post #791
post #598

Technology like this raises a moral conundrum. Minimizing deaths is the humane approach to war. So we move away from broad killing mechanisms (shelling, crude explosives, carpet bombing), in favor of precise killing machines. Drones, targeted missiles and now AI allow you to be ruthlessly efficient in killing an enemy. The question is - How cold and not-human-like can these methods be, if they are in fact reducing ov…

> Drones, targeted missiles and now AI allow you to be ruthlessly efficient in killing an enemy I understand what you are getting at, but if you read the article this is not how this technology is being used, rather the opposite. The AI seems to use very broad criteria / flimsy evidence to decide who is a target, and then it is chosen to strike them specifically when they get home and would typically be surrounded by…

> In an unprecedented move, according to two of the sources, the army also decided during the first weeks of the war that, for every junior Hamas operative that Lavender marked, it was permissible to kill up to 15 or 20 civilians

I haven't been putting much faith in numbers coming out of the region since Oct. Anyone capable of giving an accurate number is invested enough to be deeply biased in some direction. Well researched sources such as this one are directionally correct. But, you can't blame me for being suspicious of a magazine I just heard of.

> collateral damage of XYZ civilians is accepted

This is an operational decision. Even if the militants were identified by hand, the acceptable collateral was a decision made by some commander. I'm not sure how 'Lavender' (The central topic of this thread) affects this.

One argument is that 'the risk of technology' and 'the risk of how technology makes humans behave' are one and the same.

The article directionally points towards a Hanlon's Razor-esque disregard towards the shortcomings of Lavender. Any time people's lives are at stake, the bar needs to be sky-high. An intelligence operative will be trained to sniff out a fake-informant or a fake-asset from experience. They do not have the same intuitions for a statistical machine, and are likelier to ignore egde-cases, with disastrous outcomes. Some might think this is because 'Lavender coaxes them into doing it'. I believe 'humans are smart enough to know what they're getting into'.

______________________

All this being said, I repeat my earlier statement. We in the west have not seen real-war. We're applying civilian sensibilities to a situation where century long struggles have now morphed into full blown existential hatred among neighbors. US 'missions' in the middle east don't count, because they are fake wars. The US had nothing at stake. One fine day it randomly pulled out of Afghanistan and it affected the life of exactly 'zero' Americans. That's not war, that's military adventurism. The US has only ever sniffed risk 3 times in its existence. Pearl Harbor, WTC & Cuban missle crisis. Look at how it reacted in the immediate after-math of all 3, and you'll know the real face of 'American military'. Every thing else is PR and civilians happily drink the koolaid. (Here on out America = Pax Americana)

Coming back to 'real war'. What are the sensibilities of war when war is real? The price of human life is clearly not the same as peace-time. What collateral damage are Ukraine & Russia accepting as parts of their war? Look at the sheer number of deaths in recent wars/insurgencies [1]. These are mostly civilian deaths. The obvious question is - "If war is always bloody, why is everyone so caught up with this war in particular"?

That's because, Israel is unique in that it is a "western nation" engaging in war post-WW2. Western nations don't fight wars. They settled all neighborhood debates through the bloodiest wars of the 20th century. And foreign risks are crushed through NATO/American military superiority, before they ever gain momentum.

Lavendar and the Israeli military appears to place a low-value on human place. But, is this value lower than other peer-wars, or are we imposing civilian sensibilities onto war time ? I don't know. But, I dislike the hand-wavy confidence with which people choose an answer for this question.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_by_death_toll#Mod...

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#956
post #598

Technology like this raises a moral conundrum. Minimizing deaths is the humane approach to war. So we move away from broad killing mechanisms (shelling, crude explosives, carpet bombing), in favor of precise killing machines. Drones, targeted missiles and now AI allow you to be ruthlessly efficient in killing an enemy. The question is - How cold and not-human-like can these methods be, if they are in fact reducing ov…

It's not about the tech, it's about how humans use it. In this case, the IDF seems to be using tech to commit mass murder of civilians. The issue is the mass murder, not the tech.

Agreed.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#957
post #920

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Norway it is rather the other way: We all know (if we stop and think) that a person can be both a teacher and a terrorist. But according to media here almost every victim except top Hamas brass seems to be referred to by their whatever else they were besides terrorists and the terrorists (or even just soldier) part get hushed down.

What about the World Central Kitchen people? Aid workers and terrorists?

No!

And someone needs to be held accountable whatever the reason is.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#958
post #875
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea this really seems like more of a weapon of propaganda directed at Israelis. If they didn't want people to know about it, we probably wouldn't know about it. The fact that we're talking about it is probably not an accident, and I guess the play here would be to convince Israelis that the army is technologically advanced and they know what they're doing, so don't question it. But AI or not they were going to commit…

I don't know if this was really planned. With my best will, I cannot imagine the Israeli military & Netanyahu's government releasing this to cover their ass. This could be potentially something which worsens their actions and not lessen them. Obviously, nobody in an international court will be able to say "... but the AI did it!" - This is just far too easy as a way out. There are rules to AI Usage and one of them is…

I agree it doesn't justify it, but I just don't think the international court is a concern at this point. I think they're pretty far past that point.

Maybe the international court will judge them in 20 years, but the damage will have been done and netanyahu's objectives will be achieved.

The only major power that can stop it is the US and they refuse to do so.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#959
post #919

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The dramatic difference on the gaza numbers tilts this conflict out of 'war' into 'ethnic cleansing'.

No matter how much you want that to be the case for ideological purposes, it isn’t.
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