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'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

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Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#761

Post by batch12 »

darkerside wrote: post #751
solardev wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is having a human make those decisions really better? It was humans who ordered the Holocaust, My Lai, Wounded Knee, Rwanda, Tiananmen, etc. At least AI pretends to look at some data instead of just defaulting to tribal bloodlust... who's to say it can't be more ethical? It doesn't take much to beat our track record.

I'm having to take a few deep breaths before responding to some of these comments. The difference is Accountability. A computer can't be held accountable and a person can. Full stop. It makes all the difference.

The person operating the computer or building the AI could be held accountable though.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#762

Post by BLKNSLVR »

Quanttek wrote: post #108

Years ago, scholars (such as Didier Bigo) have already raised concerns about the targeting of individuals merely based on (indirect) association with a "terrorist" or "criminal". Originally used in the context of surveillance (see Snowden revelations), such systems would target anyone who would be e.g. less than 3-steps away from an identified individual, thereby removing any sense of due process or targeted surveill…

This happens in wartime:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-04-03/world-central-kitchen...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-04-02/israeli-strike-that-k...

Pretty disgraceful (which itself feels a disgracefully unimpactful thing to say regarding people losing their lives whilst doing charity work).

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#763

Post by BLKNSLVR »

tootie wrote: post #717
smt88 wrote: post #21

I know many people won't read past the headline, but please try to. This is the second paragraph: "In addition to talking about their use of the AI system, called Lavender, the intelligence sources claim that Israeli military officials permitted large numbers of Palestinian civilians to be killed, particularly during the early weeks and months of the conflict."

Yeah the AI is probably the most ethical part of this operation. The human leadership decided that no amount of collateral damage was too much.

The AI is as ethical as the humans training it.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#764

Post by ngcazz »

gotoeleven wrote: post #668
dotnet00 wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not having a governing body that genuinely works for their interests does not invalidate their rights as humans.

[flagged]

There is no material proof that Hamas has put bases in any hospital, and if you think human shields are fair game, then that speaks to your willingness to dehumanize Palestinians.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#765

Post by ngcazz »

mmustapic wrote: post #617
KingMob wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What can one do when criminals have embedded them self in the civilian population? Why don't they get out and meet the police on the battle field? We wouldn't tolerate a SWAT team blowing up a hospital if the mafia had taken over the basement, I have no idea why you think this is acceptable. > It is much better than the carpet bombing used by other nations. It is exactly like the carpet bombing used by other nation…

Would Israel blow an israeli hospital if Hamas took the basement?

I mean... per the Hannibal doctrine they might just

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#766

Post by michtzik »

bluish29 wrote: post #336
NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law of armed conflict acknowledges that civilian deaths are inevitable, and only prohibits attacks that are directed at civilians; rather than those which are directed at combatants with expected civilian casualties as collateral damage. The legal question is whether the civilian casualties are proportional to the concrete military value of the target. A question that's worth considering is whether, when consider…

> For example, the category "civilian" includes munitions workers or those otherwise offering support to combatants on the one hand, and young children on the other. It also includes members of the civil population who are actually involved in hostilities without being a formal part of an armed force. I wonder if you would say the same on the other side where every male or female above 18 years is required to serve i…

> By your argument would you say that all of these are legitimate targets?

I am not your parent commenter, and do not necessarily subscribe to any of their arguments, but I can answer your question directly: yes, to some people, the conscription of all people in a certain age range does make them legitimate targets.

In particular, from my perspective, one of the primary downsides of the inclusion of women in the armed forces is specifically that it legitimizes taegetting (other) women as a military target.

So, to be explicit, if an organization I conscripts women into their military and someone else targets I women militarily, then I will hold I morally responsible for their fate. Similarly, if an organization H utilizes children as soldiers (or human shields) and other children are militarily targeted, I will consider H morally responsible for their fate. (And to be more explicit still: sucks for all the men everywhere.)

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#768

Post by BLKNSLVR »

shmatt wrote: post #321
janice1999 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how the world was working in 2001 By the world you mean the US, but yes you are correct. "NSA targets SIM cards for drone strikes, ‘Death by unreliable metadata’" https://www.computerworld.com/article/2475921/whistleblower-...

Australia, Canada, Denmark, France, Germany, and Norway were heavily involved in the war on terror. Bombing Afghanistan but also arresting "suspected" people of their own

Australia are the 'easy' cheerleaders of the western alliance. Put it wherever you want.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#769

Post by BLKNSLVR »

beloch wrote: post #753

The capacity for computers to make errors has now far exceeded that of tequila and handguns. I'm sorry. This is so terrible that humor is the only recourse left to me. We were once afraid of AI drones with guns murdering the wrong people, but now we have an AI that is being used to plan a systematic bombing campaign. Human pilots and all the associated support personal are its tools and liberal quotas have been set o…

What the civilian mind can imagine is a mere trivial percentage of what the military can turn into reality.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#770

Post by Georgelemental »

stanski wrote: post #756
mardifoufs wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's Israel. It's also why no western country has ever really officially condemned Israel no matter what they do. They are on "our side" so it's okay. And those civilians kind of deserved it anyways or something, and we can just trust every single word the IDF says and use them as an actual source to pretend the IDF isn't into mass civilian murder. The only thing that made this time a bit different is the cra…

This is what I found the most shocking and disheartening in the first days after the October 7th massacre and the start of indiscriminate bombing of Gaza - the reaction and inaction of the West. At the moment of the Russian invasion, so many countries banded together in supporting Ukraine, both in materiel and moral support. Russia became a pariah overnight. It was an awful situation but it was uplifting to see how w…

The selectivity of Western calls to not commit war crimes predates the response to Oct 7. Two weeks earlier, the Azerbaijani dictatorship ethnically cleansed over 100,000 people from their ancestral land. Not a peep from anyone, in fact Azerbaijan is a "reliable, trustworthy partner" according to von der Leyen: https://neighbourhood-enlargement.ec.europa.eu/news/statemen...

https://www.compactmag.com/article/the-passion-of-artsakh/

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