'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza • Hacker News Board

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#681

Post by hn_throwaway_99 » Wed, Apr 03, 2024, 10:47 PM UTC

GeoAtreides wrote: post #660

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who sees both sides of this, and as someone who didn't understand this for some time, it's important to understand that one reason a story is likely to get flagged is because users think it's highly unlikely to lead to productive discussion . It doesn't mean it's a bad story, or even unworthy of discussion, but many types of stories seem to, pretty predictably, lead to a cesspool of comments where it's cle…

> users think it's highly unlikely to lead to productive discussion I wish people would let people decide for themselves what is productive or not...

There's always Twitter/X or Reddit if that's your jam. I just think it's hard to disagree that a huge, if not primary, value people feel they get from HN is the discussion, which is probably unmatched compared to any open forum on the net, and a huge part of that is moderation and curation.

Like I said, I don't agree with this particular topic getting flagged (I saw it go back and forth numerous times), but I also would push back hard on any allegations of "censorship". There are plenty of completely open forums online anyone can access with a click, and HN is most decidedly not that, by design, since the beginning of the site.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#682

Post by fhd2 » Wed, Apr 03, 2024, 10:47 PM UTC

> One source stated that human personnel often served only as a “rubber stamp” for the machine’s decisions, adding that, normally, they would personally devote only about “20 seconds” to each target before authorizing a bombing [...]

Brings the Ironies of Automation paper to mind: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironies_of_Automation

Specifically: If _most_ of a task is automated, human oversight becomes near useless. People get bored, are under time pressure, don't find enough mistakes etc and just don't do the review job they're supposed to do anymore.

A dystopian travesty.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#683

Post by lozenge » Wed, Apr 03, 2024, 10:48 PM UTC

CommieBobDole wrote: post #128

Quanttek wrote: post #108

Years ago, scholars (such as Didier Bigo) have already raised concerns about the targeting of individuals merely based on (indirect) association with a "terrorist" or "criminal". Originally used in the context of surveillance (see Snowden revelations), such systems would target anyone who would be e.g. less than 3-steps away from an identified individual, thereby removing any sense of due process or targeted surveill…

It's also interesting (and I guess typical for end-users of software) how quickly and easily something like this goes from "Here's a tool you can use as an information input when deciding who to target" to "I dunno, computer says these are the people we need to kill, let's get to it". In the Guardian article, an IDF spokesperson says it exists and is only used as the former, and I'm sure that's what was intended and…

"I'm sure that's what was intended"

Intended by who? You don't kill 13,000 children by accident.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#684

Post by bitcharmer » Wed, Apr 03, 2024, 10:48 PM UTC

cthaeh wrote: post #119

Annd it's gone. This post is deleted from the front page after being there for ~20 minutes. Every. Single. Time.

HN is the new r/worldnews. Only the correct mindset is allowed.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#685

Post by jmyeet » Wed, Apr 03, 2024, 10:52 PM UTC

Unfortunately, Big Tech has been very effective in spreading a message that helps Israel maintain the plausible deniability that comes from a system like Lavender.

For at least 15 years we've had personalized newsfeeds in social media. For even longer we've had search engine ranking, which is also personalized. Whenever criticism is levelled against Meta or Twitter or Google or whoever for the results on that ranking, it's simply blamed on "the algorithm". That serves the same purpose: to provide moral cover for human actions.

We've seen the effects of direct human intervention in cases like Google Panda [1]. We also know that search engines and newsfeeds filter out and/or downrank objectionable content. That includes obvious categories (eg CSAM, anything else illegal) but it also includes value-based judgements on perfectly legitimate content (eg [2]).

Lavender is Israel saying "the algorithm" decided what to strike.

I want to put this in context. In ~20 years of the Vietnam War, 63 journalists were killed or lost )presumed dead) [3]. In the 6 months since October 7, at least 95 journalists have been killed in Gaza [4]. In the years prior there were still a large number killed [5], famously including an American citizen Shireen abu-Akleh [6].

None of this is an accident.

My point here is that anyone who blames "the algorithm" or deflects to some ML system is purposely deflecting responsibility from the human actions that led to that and for that to continue to exist.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Panda

[2]: https://www.hrw.org/report/2023/12/21/metas-broken-promises/...

[3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_and...

[4]: https://cpj.org/2024/04/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-...

[5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_dur...

[6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Shireen_Abu_Akleh

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#686

Post by t_serpico » Wed, Apr 03, 2024, 10:53 PM UTC

pvaldes wrote: post #663

solardev wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is having a human make those decisions really better? It was humans who ordered the Holocaust, My Lai, Wounded Knee, Rwanda, Tiananmen, etc. At least AI pretends to look at some data instead of just defaulting to tribal bloodlust... who's to say it can't be more ethical? It doesn't take much to beat our track record.

when a computer program designed by a human "makes" the decision, humans can claim that it was "a funny mistake", it was not their fault and pretend to be very sad for it. Having a human to make those decisions is better because this human can be judged if commits war crimes or genocide or violates international war laws. A computer can't be jailed and this is the real power of designing this system. To hide the crim…

Exactly my thoughts, the AI shields all responsibility from the humans.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#687

Post by andsoitis » Wed, Apr 03, 2024, 10:54 PM UTC

ein0p wrote: post #661

jiggawatts wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the flip side, in this war many of the Gaza combatants are either irregular forces or militants deliberately wearing civilian clothing. So if some guy in a track suit and flip-flops uses an anti tank grenade launcher, discards the empty tube, walks away, and gets lit up, then the next day the Internet is awash with videos of the “IDF murdering a civilian!” For reference, I think both sides are in the wrong in this…

Children and women do not shoot up tanks

> women do not shoot up tanks

There’s quite a bit of literature, history, statistics on women terrorists as well as soldiers.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#688

Post by ysofunny » Wed, Apr 03, 2024, 10:56 PM UTC

CatWChainsaw wrote: post #662

Qem wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's even books written about it. Shame on IBM for this. I suspect in the future we'll have lots of books like this, for other companies enabling this genocide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust

In the future, AI will be so good that it will detect criticism of IBM as you are typing and threaten to lock you out of "your" computer unless you delete your work. Either that or genAI will be used to publish a bunch of books telling fantasy stories about how IBM personally arrested Hitler. :)

as it turns out, there's a better way.

already the AI detects criticism of itself. except its response it's to shadowban you meaning you can continue to post but nobody sees your opinion online.

eventually, you're "bubbled" by AIs.. all your interactions online are surrounded by an AI and you'd think you're interacting with other people when you're just AI-bubbled so to not disrupt the rest of the workers.

you'll still see likes, and other interactions with the social media posts you leave behind, but as a flagged critic of the system, all these interactions are merely faked to keep you calm. as the AI advances you'll even see responses, retweets and other interactions.... all AI driven in order to keep you busy while IBM keeps a calm overwatch over all. the end.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#689

Post by forgetfreeman » Wed, Apr 03, 2024, 10:59 PM UTC

fhd2 wrote: post #682

> One source stated that human personnel often served only as a “rubber stamp” for the machine’s decisions, adding that, normally, they would personally devote only about “20 seconds” to each target before authorizing a bombing [...] Brings the Ironies of Automation paper to mind: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironies_of_Automation Specifically: If _most_ of a task is automated, human oversight becomes near useless…

Nothing a few rounds of war crimes trials, complete with gallows, in the Hague won't sort out, especially if the court decided (oh I can dream) that the execs and major investors of the company that implemented the system are culpable.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#690

Post by flyinglizard » Wed, Apr 03, 2024, 10:59 PM UTC

mandmandam wrote: post #674

sequoia wrote: post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is obviously veering way off course of the topic of AI at this point, but I imagine the residents of kibbutz be'eri and the 100+ hostages still held in Gaza would disagree that Isreal is fighting for "basically no reason." I'm interested in analysis and criticism of Israel's use of AI in this case but suggesting Israel has no causus belli is absurd.

OP didn't say Israel is fighting for basically no reason. You're twisting their words, I'll assume out of a misreading. Read the comment again. They clearly said that there's no good reason to bomb Gaza the way that they have been doing, resulting in the murder of thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of civilians.

No one offered an alternative, either.