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'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

972mag.com

481–490 of 1001 posts

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#481

Two sources said that during the early weeks of the war they were permitted to kill 15 or 20 civilians during airstrikes on low-ranking militants. Attacks on such targets were typically carried out using unguided munitions known as “dumb bombs”, the sources said, destroying entire homes and killing all their occupants. The world should not forget this.

"Our system is 90% accurate if you don't count the 15-20 innocent people taken out for each hit". I know they're measuring the accuracy of target identification but that's laughable when used in this context. For 100 targets, 90 are 'correct', plus 20x civs per-target is 90/2100 or 4% real accuracy. Say you use a model that's only 50% accurate and limit yourself to 10 civs per-target, you're at 50/1100 or 4.5% accura…

These kinds of accurate numbers of acceptably killed innocents is really hurting a specific part of my sympathy brain somehow.

"we really need to missile this guy or he will kill more" vs "well we got 37 badies and also kim and yashonda, damn i really liked yashonda"

Actually after writing this my mind went farther, "since yashonda was a good person we actually have a whole bunch of hard facts about how good a person she actually was, did a lot of help for her community and was a real pillar of helping the next generation of kids be less violent...too bad we didn't add any of that info into the kill-algorithm "

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#482

Getting all these reports about atrocities, I wonder if the conflict in the area has grown more brutal over the decades or if this is just business as usual. I'm in my late 30s, growing up in the EU, the conflict in the region was always present. I don't remember hearing the kind of stories that come to light these days though, indiscriminate killings, food and water being targeted, aid workers being killed. I get th…

When the US dropped napalm indecriminately over the vietnamese jungle or absolutely leveled dresden in one bombing run or unleashed nuclear hellfire over japan, they probably killed a lot of journalists and doctors and food workers as well. Interestingly, western media did not beat itself into a frenzy over it at the time. Its easy to get cynical about it all seeing how easily narratives are manufactured and controll…

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Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#483

I'm disturbed by the idea that an AI could be used to make decisions that could proactively kill someone. (Presumably computer already make decisions that passively kill people by, for example, navigating a self-driving car.) Though there was a human sign-off in this case, it seems one step away from people being killed by robots with zero human intervention which is about one step away from the plot of Terminator. I…

Disturbing indeed. I've been worried a push back in AI is coming and this sort of story could be a tipping point and certainly would justify a period of reflection. And your probably right that the alternatives maybe worse, the folks behind Lavender could probably even prove it with data.. but there should be a moral impetus to always have a human in the loop regardless. And any such attempt to justify it won't captu…

Pushback on AI will of course have a “National security” exception. If the industrial level facial recognition tech in Xinjiang was forgotten I doubt this will make a difference

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#484
post #21

I know many people won't read past the headline, but please try to. This is the second paragraph: "In addition to talking about their use of the AI system, called Lavender, the intelligence sources claim that Israeli military officials permitted large numbers of Palestinian civilians to be killed, particularly during the early weeks and months of the conflict."

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awful take

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#485

I'm probably pro-isreal because I'm a realpolitik American that wants America's best interest. (But I'm not strong either way) Just watched someone get their post deleted for criticizing Israel's online PR/astroturfing. Israel's ability to shape online discussion has left a bad taste in my mouth. Trust is insanely low, I think the US should get a real military base in Israel in exchange for our effort. If the US gets…

Im curious, if you’re realpolitik american. Can you explain why would the USA support one country instead of appeasing 300 million in the area? What are the benefits out of being so pro israel?

It is the promised land of the Bible (Torah), where there used to be The Temple to THE God. As for all the details arising from that, that's the realpolitik.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#486

Can we please discuss the merits of this article — role of AI in future conflicts — without taking sides on any of the ongoing wars?

By calling it a war you already took a side. Maybe you are just ignorant, but that's hardly a good excuse.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#487
post #211
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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More targeted with half a million dead? Sounds like you forgot to take your not crazy pills.

The ~400,000 figure is WITHOUT targeted technology, obviously.

Why do you rush to attack?

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#488

HN has a serious problem if factual technology stories cannot exist here because some people don't like the truth. This should be advertised. The true price of AI is people using computers to make decisions no decent person would. It's not a feature, it's a war crime.

Which war crime was committed?

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#490

I don't like anything about this war, but in a way, I think concerns of AI in warfare are, at this stage, overblown. I'm more concerned about the humans doing the shooting. Let's face it, in any war, civilians are really screwed. It's true here, it was true in Afghanistan or Vietnam or WWII. They get shot at, they get bombed, by accident or not, they get displaced. Milosevic in Serbia didn't need an AI to commit geno…

I like this point, and I do think you're rightly pointing out that the issue is that selection of targets may be done badly, not that AI specifically is in the loop. With that said, I think an important detail you're overlooking is the frictionless-ness of this process. That quote people are throwing around about something like "efficiently producing the largest volume of human targets" gets to this point pretty directly I think. The problem is not just that the evidence might be flimsy, it's also that it's extremely easy to generate massive lists of targets.

Instead of the Milosevic example I'd say it's analagous to Dehomag machines during the Holocaust. The Nazis didn't need advanced database systems to attempt a genocide, but having access to them made it far far easier to turn the whole process into a factory line: something predictable and constant that allowed it to achieve a pace and scope far beyond what they would have been able to do otherwise. Similar here, or in other cases where advanced technology is brought to bear in war. Anything that makes human death more automated is, IMO, abhorrent and worth of criticism in it's own right.

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