Earlier quoted context omitted.
He is effectively paying for these flights by buying Canoo stock. This whole structure is set up to allow him to maximize the tax efficiency of his compensation. The jet travel is realized as a business expense and offsets future potential profits at the company, he also avoids paying the ~60% (federal and state income tax, as well as payroll tax paid by employer) tax that you incur paying high wage w2 employees.
My friend, that is not how public companies work. Every common shareholder is an equal, you don't get to launder jet travel the way he's doing - that's securities fraud.
Canoo spent double its annual revenue on the CEO's private jet
231–240 of 270 posts
Re: Canoo spent double its annual revenue on the CEO's private jet
#232Earlier quoted context omitted.
Can someone explain why people try to make new cars from the ground up, rather than "fork" a base platform from GM/Toyota/KIA/whoever with a different design and little features? This happens in literally every other market and industry. hell, just look at PCs and laptops. Like why can't a Canoo or Rivian license a base EV platform and come up with their own chassis design, infotainment system, and other little thing…
I'm not aware of any pure platform available off the shelf, though I imagine a big enough checkbook and a conversation with Magna might get you pretty far, but you can buy from Ford the Mustang Mach-E motor https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-9000-MACHE
Alpine makes forks of BMWs.
Braubas makes forks of Mercedes.
RUF makes forks of Porsche.
The other example is when 2+ large manufacturers work together to cost share a platform.
Examples:
- BMW Z4 / Toyota Supra
- Subaru BRZ / Toyota GT86
- Mitsubishi 3000GT / Dodge Stealth
Several Aston Martin coupes were built on Jaguar platforms.The NUMMI car factory in Fremont, CA was jointly owned by GM and Toyota before Tesla bought it. For a while, it made the Toyota Voltz / Pontiac Vibe.
I think people get the impression from the wording that the “platform available off the shelf” means the consuming manufacturer can just grab some units and modify them, but in practice, there is a massive contractual negotiation. And since car manufacturers are heavily regulated, it makes sense to cost share both the manufacturing and the standards / crash testing.
Re: Canoo spent double its annual revenue on the CEO's private jet
#233If the reimbursements were solely for corporate travel, it might not be a concern. The CEO here sold his previous company for $6.5 billion [1], so he already owned the jet before starting Canoo. The company reimburses him for corporate travel on it. What's concerning is that Canoo is stacking big losses and living on the edge...it seems like excessive spending for a company that hasn't even made a dime of profit. But…
Nobody informed is claiming that it's illegal. Even if it's not financially the worst thing, it's a bad look . The CEO's image is important. Already the stock price has tanked likely in part from these revelations. Obviously, too late for canoo, but if you're running a startup you can learn from his mistakes. Honestly at this point the reputational damage is enough, that the CEO should probably resign, if for no othe…
Re: Canoo spent double its annual revenue on the CEO's private jet
#234If the reimbursements were solely for corporate travel, it might not be a concern. The CEO here sold his previous company for $6.5 billion [1], so he already owned the jet before starting Canoo. The company reimburses him for corporate travel on it. What's concerning is that Canoo is stacking big losses and living on the edge...it seems like excessive spending for a company that hasn't even made a dime of profit. But…
I think the real issue here is that a CEO who nobody has heard of and is doing a bad job running the company claims that he needs to fly private as a business expense. It's one think for Zuck or Tim Cook to claim that flying commercial would be dangerous and a waste of time, but the way that attitude has filtered down to very small companies is astounding (especially given the outsized negative impact private jet tra…
Canoo is one of a few EV companies that on paper should make it. They have an order book that takes them to profitability. They have alpha vehicles that work (aka the product is not science fiction). Since they're selling these primarily as fleet vehicles, it's pretty valid to believe that the typical consumer EV concerns (range anxiety, nonfunctional/overbooked chargers, I live in an apartment, etc) should apply, their customers have the capital to spend, and can even easily calculate depreciation and expected benefit over existing fleet inventory.
100% of the risk in the company is manufacturing risk + not fucking up the finances e.g. by going too far into debt where the product payout doesn't make sense. That's a pretty nice place to be for being an EV company in the market now.
Re: Canoo spent double its annual revenue on the CEO's private jet
#235Earlier quoted context omitted.
You need at least 400 Million to enter the car manufacturer market. The investment does sound absolutely reasonable at this point.
Can someone explain why people try to make new cars from the ground up, rather than "fork" a base platform from GM/Toyota/KIA/whoever with a different design and little features? This happens in literally every other market and industry. hell, just look at PCs and laptops. Like why can't a Canoo or Rivian license a base EV platform and come up with their own chassis design, infotainment system, and other little thing…
Re: Canoo spent double its annual revenue on the CEO's private jet
#236Re: Canoo spent double its annual revenue on the CEO's private jet
#237If the reimbursements were solely for corporate travel, it might not be a concern. The CEO here sold his previous company for $6.5 billion [1], so he already owned the jet before starting Canoo. The company reimburses him for corporate travel on it. What's concerning is that Canoo is stacking big losses and living on the edge...it seems like excessive spending for a company that hasn't even made a dime of profit. But…
I think the real issue here is that a CEO who nobody has heard of and is doing a bad job running the company claims that he needs to fly private as a business expense. It's one think for Zuck or Tim Cook to claim that flying commercial would be dangerous and a waste of time, but the way that attitude has filtered down to very small companies is astounding (especially given the outsized negative impact private jet tra…
You're probably right that it's more reasonable for flying overseas. But for local travel, limitations on timing, connections, and airports served turn into a big waste of time. It's an analysis that has to be made about the value of the CEO or whoever's time, but it's not black and white, and a couple million bucks vs a few 100k for way better scheduling could easily be worth it.
Re: Canoo spent double its annual revenue on the CEO's private jet
#238Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is a concern for the tax payers if company is paying it as expense and deducting it from taxes instead of paying it as (taxed) salary and him doing what he wants with his money. Don't you have rules what can be expensed in the US?
Certainly there are rules. I would speculate that deducting a private jet flight used for business probably doesn't run afoul of those rules however.
It’s pretty unreal when you think about it that our culture has not small cadres of credentialed, professional liars for hire. Not just for CEOs either, think about the fake service pets for another example.
Is this what the kids call late stage capitalism?
Re: Canoo spent double its annual revenue on the CEO's private jet
#239Earlier quoted context omitted.
$1.7 million is 1-3 employees working to ship your product. When you're company is on the edge of collapse you should have your priorities straight. Diverting company resources to your own private jet is a preposterous use of resources and, imo, speaks volumes about where Canoo is headed.
Please drop me a line if you know of any startup hiring for a 500k(ish) comp package.
Re: Canoo spent double its annual revenue on the CEO's private jet
#240If the reimbursements were solely for corporate travel, it might not be a concern. The CEO here sold his previous company for $6.5 billion [1], so he already owned the jet before starting Canoo. The company reimburses him for corporate travel on it. What's concerning is that Canoo is stacking big losses and living on the edge...it seems like excessive spending for a company that hasn't even made a dime of profit. But…
Nobody informed is claiming that it's illegal. Even if it's not financially the worst thing, it's a bad look . The CEO's image is important. Already the stock price has tanked likely in part from these revelations. Obviously, too late for canoo, but if you're running a startup you can learn from his mistakes. Honestly at this point the reputational damage is enough, that the CEO should probably resign, if for no othe…
> Under a deal reached in November 2020, Canoo reimburses Aquila Family Ventures, an entity owned by the CEO, for use of an aircraft. In 2023, Canoo spent $1.7 million on this reimbursement — that’s double the amount of revenue it generated. Canoo paid Aquila Family Ventures $1.3 million in 2022 and $1.8 million in 2021 for use of the aircraft.
> Separately, Canoo also paid Aquila Family Ventures $1.7 million in 2023, $1.1 million in 2022 and $500,000 in 2021 for shared services support in its Justin, Texas, corporate office facility, according to regulatory filings.
sound familiar?
> The 11-story office building at 88 University Place was leased to WeWork and co-owned by Neumann, the company's co-founder and CEO. It was one of many buildings that WeWork leased from Neumann. Critics called the leases a conflict of interest for WeWork and an example of self-dealing by its charismatic leader.