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Why are so many people being hit with £5 fines for 'counterfeit' stamps?

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Re: Why are so many people being hit with £5 fines for 'counterfeit' stamps?

#191

Post by boomboomsubban »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #189
boomboomsubban wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If selling 99 stamps is legal, I'm not inciting them to crime, I'm selling them the maximum allowable amount that isn't a crime. Similar with conspiracy and organized crime. And yeah, these loopholes don't work because people tried them and now counterfeiting one stamp is illegal. That's my point.

They're hiring a unique person per batch, who gets paid tens of dollars at most, and none of them are willing to say who hired them?

My other post makes my actual point, this is just for fun.

Imagine I own a setup that allows me to produce counterfeit stamps. Every fifteen minutes I make 99 and then place them for sale. I sell them, then make 99 new counterfeit stamps and repeat the process.

All the risk is offloaded to anyone that buys more than 99 stamps, while the person capable of making them is safe barring some sort of mistake. All their money comes from a legal sale, meaning they're under no obligation to make sure their customer isn't reselling the stamps. So if the middle men gets arrested, the operation can continue immediately.

Yes, I can think of issues too, like eventually they stake out your location (though they'd probably need warrants of some sort.) I still think it shows that allowing someone to counterfeit 99 stamps opens loopholes the current law stops.

Oh, and from your other post, there are $9 and $30 stamps, meaning this method could counterfeit over $10,000 an hour.

Re: Why are so many people being hit with £5 fines for 'counterfeit' stamps?

#192

Post by Dyac »

bscphil wrote: post #157
2-3-7-43-1807 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well ... it's the royal mail which happens to be identical to the royal mail from the post office scandal. that's about the reassurance you got to expect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal

The article credits a docuseries I've never heard of for making this a widely known issue: > A four-part television drama, Mr Bates vs the Post Office, was broadcast on ITV in January 2024, after which the scandal became a major news story and political issue. I swear I read some long form journalism on this issue years ago. Anyone know what I might have found? For the Brits who have previously heard of this scandal,…

>For the Brits who have previously heard of this scandal, did you know about it prior to January of this year?

Yes, I've been aware of it for about 10+ years, it's been covered on-and-off in the mainstream media for years. I think the (excellent) ITV series was well-timed to coincide with the current investigations and has improved understanding of the industrial scale of the injustice.

Thinking about all the mistreated sub-postmasters and mistresses and how for some of them it ended, ruined, or dominated their lives is heartbreaking. To be honest, even just thinking about those shunned by their communities and neighbours because everyone was told they were criminals is awful, never mind the lives cut short.

I do hope that now there is such clear evidence of the injustices available that people can be compensated properly and have their reputations restored.

Re: Why are so many people being hit with £5 fines for 'counterfeit' stamps?

#193

Post by Dylan16807 »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #190
Dylan16807 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> each run has 99 stamps, then they distribute them In that case they're not making much money per batch and they have to only ever get caught once in their life, so it's not much difference to them, it only makes a significant difference to someone that isn't mass-producing stamps. > Dunno, we're really spending too much time attacking my bullshit hypothetical that was meant to say "make it hard for the law to have…

The original or real law considers counterfeiting one stamp a crime, which I think is fine. I took issue with somebody criticizing that law by saying only counterfeiting one stamp shouldn't be a crime. So I pointed out that if you made some arbitrary non-one number the breaking point you're opening up loopholes. I'm not trying to introduce loopholes, the law is what it is to prevent loopholes. And the ridiculousness…

By "original" I mean coldtea's suggesting that counterfeiting "_a_ stamp" should not be a "serious federal felony".

You're suggesting a lot of loopholes that don't work.

Re: Why are so many people being hit with £5 fines for 'counterfeit' stamps?

#194

Post by Dylan16807 »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #191
Dylan16807 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're hiring a unique person per batch, who gets paid tens of dollars at most, and none of them are willing to say who hired them?

My other post makes my actual point, this is just for fun. Imagine I own a setup that allows me to produce counterfeit stamps. Every fifteen minutes I make 99 and then place them for sale. I sell them, then make 99 new counterfeit stamps and repeat the process. All the risk is offloaded to anyone that buys more than 99 stamps, while the person capable of making them is safe barring some sort of mistake. All their mon…

So ignoring that you're the only one that suggested smaller batches would be entirely legal:

All a prosecutor needs to do is show that you made two batches. If you make a batch every 15 minutes, how do you expect not to get caught?

If they catch the middleman delivering two batches, and the middleman snitches, you're done. Or even if they have one batch, but they get offered a reward to say where they got it. Then the authorities only need to get evidence you made 1 more stamp.

And don't tell me you're going to sell to a brand new middleman every 15 minutes.

Re: Why are so many people being hit with £5 fines for 'counterfeit' stamps?

#195

Post by boomboomsubban »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #194
boomboomsubban wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My other post makes my actual point, this is just for fun. Imagine I own a setup that allows me to produce counterfeit stamps. Every fifteen minutes I make 99 and then place them for sale. I sell them, then make 99 new counterfeit stamps and repeat the process. All the risk is offloaded to anyone that buys more than 99 stamps, while the person capable of making them is safe barring some sort of mistake. All their mon…

So ignoring that you're the only one that suggested smaller batches would be entirely legal : All a prosecutor needs to do is show that you made two batches. If you make a batch every 15 minutes, how do you expect not to get caught? If they catch the middleman delivering two batches, and the middleman snitches, you're done. Or even if they have one batch, but they get offered a reward to say where they got it. Then t…

No, my entire thing has always been based on possession being the crime. The current law is written to outlaw creation too, but I don't see how that could stay if creating 99 counterfeits is legal, as proving this was the 100th counterfeit you made would be a challenge.

Even if the middleman flipped, unless you made them in front of them you could say you got them from someone else.

Yes, they may eventually be able to pin it on you, but under the current system they can instantly charge anyone that is a serious counterfeiter and ignore someone who counterfeit one stamp. They don't need to bother making someone flip then somehow proving you've made at least 100 stamps.

I will say, this explains most of our disagreement, with a bit more coming from my opinion that making this a misdemeanor would still allow some abuse, depending on the punishments.

And I'm done, I no longer find this fun. I don't think the current law is being used to unjustly punish people, and that's good enough for me.

Re: Why are so many people being hit with £5 fines for 'counterfeit' stamps?

#196

Post by Wingy »

1letterunixname wrote: post #113
taylorfinley wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The barcode in the article decodes to "JGB S11221017031011395940006622112101 BC046285E760466C01" if anyone fancies having a crack at making a stamp keygen.

Likely, they use some authenticated hash like HMAC SHA-256 with a schedule of randomly chosen keys added periodically. (Can't really rotate out keys once generated.) GFL reversing the algorithm AND any working key. Also, an "is it used" database has to be kept to prevent an analog replay attack by reusing the same barcode. The most efficient way to keep track of used stamps would be a bloom filter. A poor implementat…

Would pure random + a central database not be more practical? Assuming the barcode is a 10-by-50 grid, that's 500 bits of entropy. With 100 bits of entropy, you need over 100 trillion codes to have a 0.4% chance of a collision. Every added bit makes it twice as unlikely.

There's no need to have crypto if you're the authority on both assigning and verifying the barcodes. That way, no attacker will be able to create a barcode and have any hope of it working.

Re: Why are so many people being hit with £5 fines for 'counterfeit' stamps?

#197

Post by Dylan16807 »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #195
Dylan16807 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So ignoring that you're the only one that suggested smaller batches would be entirely legal : All a prosecutor needs to do is show that you made two batches. If you make a batch every 15 minutes, how do you expect not to get caught? If they catch the middleman delivering two batches, and the middleman snitches, you're done. Or even if they have one batch, but they get offered a reward to say where they got it. Then t…

No, my entire thing has always been based on possession being the crime. The current law is written to outlaw creation too, but I don't see how that could stay if creating 99 counterfeits is legal, as proving this was the 100th counterfeit you made would be a challenge. Even if the middleman flipped, unless you made them in front of them you could say you got them from someone else. Yes, they may eventually be able t…

> No, my entire thing has always been based on possession being the crime.

Then why did you say "if the law only forbid counterfeiting 100 stamps"??

I'm done too, because my entire argument was based on what you actually said, not what you secretly meant and never clarified.

Also the "unless you made them in front of them" excuse about proof could be applied to making even 1. You're grasping at straws to make conviction sound more difficult than it is.

Re: Why are so many people being hit with £5 fines for 'counterfeit' stamps?

#198

Post by boomboomsubban »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #197
boomboomsubban wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, my entire thing has always been based on possession being the crime. The current law is written to outlaw creation too, but I don't see how that could stay if creating 99 counterfeits is legal, as proving this was the 100th counterfeit you made would be a challenge. Even if the middleman flipped, unless you made them in front of them you could say you got them from someone else. Yes, they may eventually be able t…

> No, my entire thing has always been based on possession being the crime. Then why did you say "if the law only forbid counterfeiting 100 stamps"?? I'm done too, because my entire argument was based on what you actually said, not what you secretly meant and never clarified. Also the "unless you made them in front of them" excuse about proof could be applied to making even 1. You're grasping at straws to make convict…

This may shock you, but I spent about twenty seconds on my original comment. I certainly didn't have an editor go over it to ensure my actual point of view was getting across. Hell, you can see the edit I made showing when I realized we may be talking past eachother with possess/create.

Re: Why are so many people being hit with £5 fines for 'counterfeit' stamps?

#199

Post by chrisjj »

chrisjj wrote: post #123
taylorfinley wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, what about that would be dumb? Attempted reuse is exactly what would be prevented by scanning the barcode and seeing it had already been used. This is exactly why gift cards have scratch-off material covering their secret keys, otherwise folks would just take a picture of the next card in the stack, wait for it to be funded, and then use it before the recipient does. edit: And would you look at that, you can b…

> Sorry, what about that would be dumb? Reused barcode does not mean counterfeit. > Attempted reuse is exactly what would be prevented by scanning the barcode and seeing it had already been used. Sure, but the alleged crime here is not attempted reuse. It is counterfeiting - as shown in the pic of the Royal Mail fee request label.

Just to be clear, nothing from Royal Mail here suggests they suspect reuse.

And the fact it did not tick the reuse box suggests it does not.

Re: Why are so many people being hit with £5 fines for 'counterfeit' stamps?

#200

Post by washadjeffmad »

jimnotgym wrote: post #52
adamm255 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is, the recipient is paying the fine. I send you a letter with a fake stamp, you pay. The £5 is an inconvenience, something you’d pay while tutting “what is the world coming to”. The sender is none the wiser. 7.3bn letters delivered in 22-23 ( https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0032/272795/... ) If 0.01% of that are tagged as counterfeit, that’s £3,650,000 in fines.

Makes me feel like sending a load of them to the Daily Mail...

It'd be a fair campaign for everyone to return their stamps by sending them affixed to complaint cards to their local councilperson or postmaster.
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