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Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

vitalik.eth.limo

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Re: Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

#391

Post by troupo »

pcthrowaway wrote: post #382
troupo wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But at the very least it's often interesting to see how traditional systems are reimagined in order to enable decentralized, trustless, computer programs They are not re-imagined. It's a combination of a still on-ongoing gold rush (well, the end tail of it) and people pretending there are purely technical solutions to all problems. Almost every single of those "interesting re-imagining" projects rather quickly redi…

> well, the end tail of it Whatever your feelings on the impact of the technology are, you can't possibly know this > Almost every single of those "interesting re-imagining" projects rather quickly rediscovers why traditional systems are the way they are, and end up being shittier versions of those. I pretty much agree with this, though I'd suggest "most" rather than "almost every". Most scientific studies may fail t…

> I pretty much agree with this, though I'd suggest "most" rather than "almost every".

The absolute vast majority (outside of scams, obviously).

> Most scientific studies may fail to support their hypothesis also, that doesn't make them uninteresting.

Scientific studies don't pretend to be re-imagining anything.

Re: Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

#392

Post by rglullis »

pcthrowaway wrote: post #383
rglullis wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I asked for "source" because I know that this is "repeated ad nauseam in the Internet" while being provably false. The very first result on your google query is a bitcoin.com page that is 404, but archive.org has this: The Ethereum network started off with a supply of 72 million Ether (ETH). Eighty-three percent of that (60 million) was distributed to people who had purchased ETH in a crowd sale that was conducted in…

> If Algorand or Cardano ever got close to the transaction volume from Ethereum, you can bet that their average transaction fees would go up accordingly. I'm not sure what you mean by this. I don't know about Algorand or Cardano transaction volume, but many EVM-based blockchains process a similar number of transactions to ethereum (or more), with lower fees. They do all have different (proof of stake still) consensus…

Let's get Polygon out, because they are not a base-layer blockchain.

> a similar number of transactions to ethereum (or more), with lower fees.

Are we talking about the base currency (Wei) or the dollar-equivalent amount? If Wei, the only way that the transaction fees can be lower is if the chain has a different set of costs for the operations.

If you are talking about the dollar-equivalent amount, then yes, transactions are going to be "more expensive". But even then, it is not related to the consensus algorithm and just the "price of the base token".

Re: Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

#393

Post by kemotep »

pcthrowaway wrote: post #388
kemotep wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should you not want the price to be stable? If an arcade game’s price went from 50 cents per play to 5 dollars per play because more people are using a delivery application on the other side of the world that doesn’t make much sense from a consumer perspective.

There are definitely bitcoin diehards out there who look at the price of everything relative to bitcoin. From a practical standpoint, I think most people would prefer it if the currency used by their country of residence increased in value relative to other global currencies, rather than just staying stable (though for hyperinflationary countries, even that would be a major improvement). Although stability relative t…

But the argument is that the grandparent comment is making is that you should build your application on the ethereum network, eth is the “oil” of this machine, and the more people who use it the higher the value of eth is.

So if I make a game, or an uber for dog walkers, or a global shipping service, or some SaaS app on the ethereum blockchain, then my customers will have to pay more or less (or my costs will be higher or lower) depending on how active the network is.

That makes no sense. Day to day price and gas fee fluctuations make it hard to long term plan. Just saying that if you want price stability use a stablecoin doesn’t address that issue because we are not building the app on the blockchain of the stablecoin. There isn’t an eth stable coin that is always 1 blip to 1 eth exchange rate.

Re: Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

#394

Post by rglullis »

kemotep wrote: post #380
maxcoder4 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll rephrase a bit for the HN crowd: "The Ethereum currency (Ether) value proposition is that it is used to pay for decentralized apps on the Ethereum Blockchain. The more application and users are there, the more Ether is needed and hence it's value goes up". At least that's how I understand it. OPs point is that most cryptocurrency advocates go for "but my token and hold, it is sure to grow 10x in a few months" an…

Should you not want the price to be stable? If an arcade game’s price went from 50 cents per play to 5 dollars per play because more people are using a delivery application on the other side of the world that doesn’t make much sense from a consumer perspective.

If the stakes of the arcade game were so high that people wanted to have its logic running on the base-layer - e.g, high prizes for winners, or the possibility of using power ups obtained in other games - then the price to play would have to depend on the network activity.

But because these games don't, it should be totally fine to delegate this application to a layer-2 system like a roll-up or a payment channel.

Re: Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

#395

Post by yieldcrv »

mand1575 wrote: post #206
yieldcrv wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a better question is to look at how people use it, the frictions they encounter, and who works on solving those frictions just saying “speculation” as if thats not a use case misses that “financial services” are our biggest industry on the planet and thats mirrored in the blockchain space, many people solve frictions and compete with each other. it willfully ignores that all currencies are 99% held as stores of value…

Given that we are now entering another crypto hype cycle and blockchain technology, discussions often veer towards crypto and the allure of embedded tokens. I’m going to stick to the realty and opportunity: utilizing blockchain in fixed income finance. Having spent two decades navigating the complexities of Wall Street, I know the critical problem plaguing the fixed income market: the overwhelming amount of data gene…

Great, yeah are you going to move off the permissions blockchain to just permissioned smart contracts on a public blockchain?

Capital formation has been occurring this way for at least 12 years on public blockchains.

Satoshidice was one of the first companies and its shareholders created a vibrant secondary market onchain. They did dividends daily and it always went out to every shareholder daily. What happens now is so much more advanced but even more frictionless for crypto native issuers and traders.

One day DTCC and FINRA and the Fed will conform it to their redundant processes so that registered securities can do the same, using the same public utilities as everyone else.

Re: Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

#396

Post by rglullis »

kemotep wrote: post #393
pcthrowaway wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are definitely bitcoin diehards out there who look at the price of everything relative to bitcoin. From a practical standpoint, I think most people would prefer it if the currency used by their country of residence increased in value relative to other global currencies, rather than just staying stable (though for hyperinflationary countries, even that would be a major improvement). Although stability relative t…

But the argument is that the grandparent comment is making is that you should build your application on the ethereum network, eth is the “oil” of this machine, and the more people who use it the higher the value of eth is. So if I make a game, or an uber for dog walkers, or a global shipping service, or some SaaS app on the ethereum blockchain, then my customers will have to pay more or less (or my costs will be high…

> or a global shipping service, or some SaaS app on the ethereum blockchain, then my customers will have to pay more or less (or my costs will be higher or lower) depending on how active the network is.

Only if you want to have these applications fully running on the base layer, which is frankly nonsense.

To give you one practical example: Storj can provide a object storage service at AWS scale, and its pricing has nothing to do network activity and the price of storage does not change based on the amount of transactions per minute. Unless you want to be paid in real-time and account for every byte that you are storing and transmitting, there is no need to put all of the business logic in the blockchain.

Re: Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

#397

Post by wslh »

rglullis wrote: post #356
wslh wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Consensus algorithms have nothing to do with transaction fees. Please don't tell bullshit. Look at Algorand and other protocols, consensus has a relationship with fees because it is linked with the cost of reaching consensus! You can even read that in the Ethereum subreddit [0]. > Source? It is repeated ad nauseam in Internet [1] and you can analyze the blockchain genesis to check it. > Ethereum killer? It is not a…

I asked for "source" because I know that this is "repeated ad nauseam in the Internet" while being provably false. The very first result on your google query is a bitcoin.com page that is 404, but archive.org has this: The Ethereum network started off with a supply of 72 million Ether (ETH). Eighty-three percent of that (60 million) was distributed to people who had purchased ETH in a crowd sale that was conducted in…

You know that Algorand and Solana supports a bigger number of TPSs that Ethereum and with lower fees and different consensus mechanisms, if you don't know that I am talking about someone that tries to show expertise but don't have any real one. It is a fact.

Initial investors are also contributors. The number allocated initially is really huge.

Re: Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

#398

Post by qweqwe14 »

godelski wrote: post #362
qweqwe14 wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't. Zcash has opt-in privacy, which I think we've established doesn't work. By this logic BTC also has opt-in privacy – just use a mixer. Well, except that your BTC will be tainted if you do it, which effectively makes BTC non-fungible for all intents and purposes. The only way to have a private, fungible cryptocurrency is to make privacy mandatory and not "something you enable because you are a drug dealer"…

> Zcash has opt-in privacy You could just as accurately say Zcash has opt-out privacy too. And the privacy is much more than a mixer since you got ZKPs. Opting out of privacy gives it more plausible deniability, which is why you can find it on coinbase. Not that you should need deniability, since no one has any business knowing what you're doing with your money.

> Opting out of privacy gives it more plausible deniability

So if you actually want to interact with the real world, you have to opt out of privacy? And if you enable privacy you are automatically treated as a weirdo? I don't get the whole point of Zcash.

It's the same issue as with Bitcoin – you can make your transactions private, but it's not the default and not obvious for new users, and anyone who does it is subject to suspicion.

It really looks to me like this "privacy" aspect of Zcash is just a marketing gimmick. It doesn't have any advantages to just using Monero in the first place.

Re: Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

#399

Post by rglullis »

PKop wrote: post #340
rglullis wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BTC (and derivatives) were very much "just for holding". The fact that they hoped it could be used for day-to-day value transfers does not negate the fact that the system can only work with a continuous influx of capital. "You should pay something with BTC, but if possible buy back the USD-equivalent amount" was standard advice already in 2011. > Saying you have some other use case besides asset appreciation is not a…

>they hoped it could be used for day-to-day value transfers And they said this, including Satoshi. Yes they were wrong, but they said it. >Now, it isn't It's never been unique, because every coin has said it including, as you have mentioned in every response so far, Bitcoiners. You've also said Eth guys have said. What are we left with? Every other **coin has obviously said it. I'm not arguing they all mean it, or th…

> I'm not arguing they all mean it, or they've been right. I'm arguing they all said it.

Then this whole discussion is pointless. Why should we care about what people say or believe, unless it can be backed by their actions?

Instead of putting them all in the same bucket because on what they said, let's judge them based on what they did. And Vitalik has consistently shown that his work is aligned with the stated plans and vision for Ethereum.

Re: Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?

#400

Post by DennisP »

defiamazing wrote: post #341
DennisP wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need ETH to pay transaction fees. As long as there's more demand for blockspace than the space available, ETH will have a non-speculative value. The reason for the burn was the 1559 upgrade, which fixed the horrible user experience of guessing what minimum fee level would get your transaction through in a timely manner, and often either overpaying, or underpaying and suffering long delays. If not for the fee burn…

Basically you're arguing for chartalism, it has value because validators say it's the only thing they'll accept. That can change at any time, it's not the same as a company's stock's value being backed by liquid revenue. Imagine situations where the network just decides they want to accept other tokens at the expense of ETH. Imagine what happens to network security if there's a huge speculative dump - would network h…

Not at all. The validators get a small portion of the transaction fee for themselves and certainly they could ask for something different. But the ETH burn is built into the protocol. In theory that could be changed, if you got agreement not just from validators but from the rest of the ecosystem too. But nobody wants to change it. 1559 became very popular within days of hitting production, since it improved user experience so much. And the bigger the ecosystem gets, the harder it is to make fundamental changes.

But sure, in theory all the protocol rules could be changed. In theory Bitcoin could change their 21M supply limit. In theory, a company could sell its fixed assets and pivot to an entirely different business, or the US could change its constitution and take away property rights. But in practice, we usually estimate values based on the way things are working now, and put little weight on unlikely fundamental changes that might happen someday.

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