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Florida's DeSantis signs law restricting social media for people under 16

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Re: Florida's DeSantis signs law restricting social media for people under 16

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue here has absolutely nothing to do with how it affects kids, it has to do with how it affects adults. Again: "States are basically requiring identification to speak or criticize government in the town square." The fact that the legislation is intended to affect kids is irrelevant if the only legally permitted way to comply damages the individual liberties of adults.

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To be clear, I'm not trying to suggest an ulterior motive on the part of DeSantis or the Florida legislature. But effectively requiring a government ID to exercise free speech on the internet damages individual liberty (again, of adults) regardless of whether that's an intended effect or not.

Re: Florida's DeSantis signs law restricting social media for people under 16

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve gotten by for the last several years without Facebook or Google (I do use a YT account, but not for anything meaningful). It’s annoying, but doable.

>I’ve gotten by for the last several years without Facebook or Google (I do use a YT account, but not for anything meaningful). It’s annoying, but doable. I think the point is that the internet and particularly social media is now the de-facto town square. States are basically requiring identification to speak or criticize government in the town square. If you take a step back and look at it that way, it's grossly an…

This has become such a common trope that I think people fail to apply even a modicum of scrutiny: the internet is not the town square and whatever your idea of the town square is likely wrong if you think its as wild-west-y as the internet is.

Firstly, try to approach children in the town square while wearing a mask for anonymity; or try to hold up images of porn in your town square. You will not be there long, you'd likely be detained, and you'd likely be asked for identification.

Secondly, why do people think there is some sort of town square? I have lived in several large US cities and several small towns. In neither was there any sort of common place where we all congregated to address matters of the town. At best, there are city hall/city council meetings where the public can speak but at least in my town (and I know of many others), identification is required to prove that you live in the town!

Even the founding fathers, when writing under pseudonyms, understood that anonymity and circulation was incumbent upon them to maintain, not that they were entitled to it because "town square."

To address your last point: this is not simply some ill conceived moral panic/think of the children type moment. Go try to host - as an adult - an AA meeting or "computer meetup" with children that happens to be held in the local adult toy shop. See how well that goes for you. At this point, we know children are getting approached by adults at a large scale on instagram, we know children are getting exposed to a lot of adult content on twitter, and on the spectrum between innocent HOA meeting and damaging to society as a whole, its clearly more towards the latter.

Re: Florida's DeSantis signs law restricting social media for people under 16

#223

The biggest problem I see is that we’re now essentially requiring ID to use substantial parts of the internet. So many business only have a Facebook page, Google maps has social features. I already didn’t want a Facebook account just to see a businesses specials, now I’ll need to present ID too? Certainly interested to see how all this plays out.

H.B.3 only prohibits these minors holding accounts on social media. They can still browse, as can anyone without an account and age verification. You'd be able to view a business's information, watch videos, etc etc etc, just not create your own. It also has conditions for which sites are affected by this law. The site has to have doomscroll and already be popular with kids. Google Maps isn't what they're targeting.…

The last thing we need is to force everyone to have ID to “protect the children” before I can go on to a site on the internet.

Re: Florida's DeSantis signs law restricting social media for people under 16

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

H.B.3 only prohibits these minors holding accounts on social media. They can still browse, as can anyone without an account and age verification. You'd be able to view a business's information, watch videos, etc etc etc, just not create your own. It also has conditions for which sites are affected by this law. The site has to have doomscroll and already be popular with kids. Google Maps isn't what they're targeting.…

The last thing we need is to force everyone to have ID to “protect the children” before I can go on to a site on the internet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Your_papers,_please

Re: Florida's DeSantis signs law restricting social media for people under 16

#225

The biggest problem I see is that we’re now essentially requiring ID to use substantial parts of the internet. So many business only have a Facebook page, Google maps has social features. I already didn’t want a Facebook account just to see a businesses specials, now I’ll need to present ID too? Certainly interested to see how all this plays out.

I suspect more businesses will create a separate website because of this law, so you'll have even less reason to use Facebook or whip out your ID.

Re: Florida's DeSantis signs law restricting social media for people under 16

#226
post #218

>Critics have said the bill violates the U.S. Constitution's First Amendment protections for free speech and that parents, not the government, should make decisions about the online presence of their children of all ages. It's extremely difficult for parents to stop their children, especially early teens from using social media. This law should make it easier and it would put the work on Meta, Snap, Tiktok, Pinterest…

Why should companies be forced to help parents supervise their own children? It's ironic that DeSantis is all about parental freedom yet wants to turn the companies into a nanny.

He's a leader in the party of big government -- but I doubt he would admit it.

At least the other side doesn't hide the fact that they're in favor of regulations.

Re: Florida's DeSantis signs law restricting social media for people under 16

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alright let's do that. Is disallowing children from driving vehicles or purchasing and consuming alcohol a bad idea? My conclusion: No. Children should not be able to do those things. Therefore, there are likely other things they should not be allowed to do. I honestly can't believe we're even having this discussion.

I can't believe we're not having this discussion. The driving example is a bit disingenuous because, in the US at least, driving isn't conceptualized as a "right" - it's formulated as a privilege. The drinking example is closer, but that's the right to self-determination. I don't suspect that you believe children have zero self-determination, nor do I suspect that you believe that one person's right to vote should be…

> "Women shouldn't be allowed to vote because some women can't make good decisions."

I of course disagree with that statement, but it would imply that some women _can_ make good decisions.

To carry that back to the original argument, you are implying there are children out there who are capable of participating in political discourse.

I disagree.

It's starting to feel a bit like I'm feeding the trolls here, so I'll let this be my final reply. Have a good day.

Re: Florida's DeSantis signs law restricting social media for people under 16

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not speaking from personal experience. My kid is only 4. Your argument seems like exactly what my parents would have said about me spending so much time on TV, computers and electronics instead of studying, playing outside, sports etc. Almost exactly like your last paragraph.. “I’m personally glad that I grew up without infinite channels on TV, computers and its games, cell phones and your SMSes. I’m worried about yo…

I think the empirical evidence is fairly clear, actually.[1][2] Having struggled with various forms of screen addiction myself, I find it sort of odd that a lot of people are so laissez faire about giving children the most addictive device ever created.[3] Whether or not this law is a good idea, I think it's incumbent on parents to monitor and limit screen time and access to social media. Which is difficult! When my…

It's risky to describe the claims of social studies profs as clear empirical evidence, given the history of the field.

Twenge makes some unscientific arguments in her blog post, like constantly conflating correlation with causation despite her evidence not being able to show that. She also seems to think that if she knocks down a series of counter-arguments, then that means that her own argument must be correct. Given that Haidt's identical claims already turned out to be based on very poor quality evidence [1], their argumentation must be examined carefully before rushing to action.

Still, assume for a moment that it's a correct causal inference despite the major flaws in their evidence base. There's another tricky aspect to this. The Twenge/Haidt argument is really only about teenage girls. Although Haidt is basically honest about this (see [2]), Twenge is not. The opening of her article you cite talks about teenagers in general, but the first figure only shows data for girls and women. Then the second figure is even captioned "Figure 2: tech adoption, teen depression" but the legend actually says "Depression, girls". A few paragraphs later she's making claims about "individuals" whilst providing evidence that's once again specific to teenage girls. Her article is full of sloppy conflations like this.

Anyway, needless to say, neither politicians nor academics are willing to only ban social media for girls. This would upset the left so the argument morphs seamlessly into "social media should be banned for all teenagers" which isn't a story found in their data. This punishes boys for the mental health problems of girls, but is that just?

There's also a more subtle logical problem with this argument. It assumes that teenagers are a fixed group, and thus any change in their behavior must be due to some immediate alteration to their environment. But it's not: "teenage" is a sliding window that people constantly pass through. In other words it's possible that these depressed teens have always been somehow messed up, and simply aged into the categorization they're looking at. By implication the true answer could be found in earlier periods, even as far as back as changes to childrearing practices in the late 80s/early 90s rather than something that changed specifically in 2012. One theory posits that it's something to do with the rise of extremely early daycare for infants (e.g. for children less than one or two years old), and they also have a variety of correlations to bolster their case.

It may be that social studies academics simply cannot answer such questions.

[1] https://reason.com/2023/03/29/the-statistically-flawed-evide... "Haidt's compendium of research does point to one important finding: Because these studies have failed to produce a single strong effect, social media likely isn't a major cause of teen depression. A strong result might explain at least 10 percent or 20 percent of the variation in depression rates by difference in social media use, but the cited studies typically claim to explain 1 percent or 2 percent or less. These levels of correlations can always be found even among totally unrelated variables in observational social science studies. Moreover the studies do not find the same or similar correlations, their conclusions are all over the map."

[2] https://www.afterbabel.com/p/social-media-mental-illness-epi...

Re: Florida's DeSantis signs law restricting social media for people under 16

#229
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Riiiight. Because four year olds have a strong grasp on current events and deserve a say, and totally wouldn’t just become an extra vote for whomever their parents are voting for.

Yep, I understand the practical issues with my position. But I can’t ethically condone saying “you have no voice” to a fellow citizen, so I prefer no restrictions.

Whose voice does the 4 year old have? Theirs or their parents? What you do by opening the vote to children below a certain age is all you are doing is amplifying the vote of the parents, you are not giving voice to the children.

At what age does the child who can vote actually have the capacity to choose their candidate and are even able to negotiate the mechanics of voting? Let’s say 18 is too old, but how young before they are able to counter the influence of a parent and decide for themselves…I’d argue its at least well into their teens.

Re: Florida's DeSantis signs law restricting social media for people under 16

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you have to draw the line somewhere, and 18 is considered when someone is capable of their own adult decision making.

This is the number we've been using recently, but it's been different in the past and there's no reason to keep using it, especially when we have data showing that 25 is the age your decision making faculties are generally fully developed

When I was a kid the argument was “if you can be drafted and sent to war you should be able to vote”. The state is still going to want those young able bodies for their militaries. Raising our age of adulthood to 25 seems unlikely to go over very well.
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