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William Adams: English Advisor to the Shogun

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Re: William Adams: English Advisor to the Shogun

#31

Post by Jrjrir48 »

ProjectArcturis wrote: post #18
JoeDaDude wrote: post #4

For folk interested in learning more about what historians and similar think of the novel, a compilation of essays on the subject titled "Learning from SHOGUN: Japanese History and Western Fantasy" has been made available courtesy of the compilation's editor, Henry Smith.: https://www.columbia.edu/~hds2/learning/

I've always wondered about the accuracy of the book, in part because the junior samurai kill themselves a LOT. They're forced to commit seppuku for being late to their work in the morning. There's a scene where a samurai jumps off a cliff to his death just get his boss's attention (I guess yelling would have been rude). Also ninjas are depicted as super-powerful badasses. Which fits the legend, certainly, but isn't p…

That does not mean the book is not accurate, book just has to be read certain way.

If you read modern literature , there is a lot of noise and hyperbole. Like 20% females being raped while studying at college. It comes from well accepted study, was quoted in several journals, but obviously has to be open to some interpretation.

My guess young samurais would prefer seppuku over chores and punishment. Perhaps look into Kyōgen to get some perspective.

Re: William Adams: English Advisor to the Shogun

#32

Post by zer00eyz »

steveoscaro wrote: post #30
alephknoll wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've always wondered about the accuracy of the book It's a work of fiction. I suspect it is as accurate as a japanese book about america or hollywood's depiction of the wild west. Early on, the book describes blackthorne as being a head and shoulders taller than the locals. That may be true in 1900s england, but in 1600s ( really 1500s ) england, an englishman was generally closer to 5 feet than 6 feet. And as you…

I can't tell if you're in or out of the know on the "true story" part haha

I grew up in Sandy Hook, part of Newtown.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Helle_Crafts

This woman's murder was the inspiration for Fargo.

Re: William Adams: English Advisor to the Shogun

#33

Post by seanparsons »

stuartcw wrote: post #2

I live on the Miura peninsular not too far from William Adams fiefdom. It’s possible to walk up the hill from Anjinzuka Station (The navigator’s hill) and see his and his wife’s grave.

Conversely I live in Gillingham, where there's several references to him and his history.

Re: William Adams: English Advisor to the Shogun

#34

Post by ProjectArcturis »

alephknoll wrote: post #28
ProjectArcturis wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always wondered about the accuracy of the book, in part because the junior samurai kill themselves a LOT. They're forced to commit seppuku for being late to their work in the morning. There's a scene where a samurai jumps off a cliff to his death just get his boss's attention (I guess yelling would have been rude). Also ninjas are depicted as super-powerful badasses. Which fits the legend, certainly, but isn't p…

> I've always wondered about the accuracy of the book It's a work of fiction. I suspect it is as accurate as a japanese book about america or hollywood's depiction of the wild west. Early on, the book describes blackthorne as being a head and shoulders taller than the locals. That may be true in 1900s england, but in 1600s ( really 1500s ) england, an englishman was generally closer to 5 feet than 6 feet. And as you…

Out of curiosity, I found a study, "A biomolecular anthropological investigation of William Adams, the first SAMURAI from England", which dug up his bones and estimated he was 170 cm (about 5'7").

Re: William Adams: English Advisor to the Shogun

#35

Post by bluepizza »

Sakos wrote: post #13
dfxm12 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was there really a legitimate legal issue needed to be accounted for at the time, across these borders? Additionally, ostensibly to Adams, it would have been something he would have to answer to his creator for moreso than the crown or Shogun, if he was a true believer anyway.

Polygamy (as in being married to more than one person) isn't and wasn't legal in Japan. I don't see how it would in any way be feasible or acceptable to take a new wife in Japan of all places, where honor and family are such important aspects of their culture, while already married.

I understand OP's question to be more practical than honour and family - literally as "Would the Japanese recognise a marriage performed in England?".

Civil registration started in England only in 1837. Modern koseki system in Japan started in 1872, but different systems of civil registration existed way before that, including one created under the shogunate (though many years after Adams's passing).

And indeed, they couldn't possibly careless about his married status regarding him marrying a Japanese woman. His declaration of death was so that he would be free to serve the shogunate freely, without the obligation of return to his family in England.

Neither bureaucracy nor family honour.

Re: William Adams: English Advisor to the Shogun

#36

Post by stevenwoo »

ProjectArcturis wrote: post #18
JoeDaDude wrote: post #4

For folk interested in learning more about what historians and similar think of the novel, a compilation of essays on the subject titled "Learning from SHOGUN: Japanese History and Western Fantasy" has been made available courtesy of the compilation's editor, Henry Smith.: https://www.columbia.edu/~hds2/learning/

I've always wondered about the accuracy of the book, in part because the junior samurai kill themselves a LOT. They're forced to commit seppuku for being late to their work in the morning. There's a scene where a samurai jumps off a cliff to his death just get his boss's attention (I guess yelling would have been rude). Also ninjas are depicted as super-powerful badasses. Which fits the legend, certainly, but isn't p…

They tried to fix several historical inaccuracies in the most recent show, including no Hollywood ninjas, and the Japanese already understanding guns because the Portuguese introduced them 50 years earlier but learning cannon techniques from the Adams stand-in instead, though some of the formal gestures (some sitting position IIRC) they told the performers to use the incorrect but popular forms used in Japanese movies and television about the time period. They talk about the changes they made in the after episode podcast, one of the historical consultants sometimes comes on.

Re: William Adams: English Advisor to the Shogun

#37

Post by mangamadaiyan »

cm2012 wrote: post #17
kaesar14 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve felt like it’s deviated quite a bit, but it’s well made nonetheless

The new show has been made more accurate to the time period, they had historical experts come in. Plus the guy who plays Toranaga is an amateur historian of the time period and helped a lot.

Sanada Hiroyuki? That's just brilliant! I knew he was fairly well-accomplished (singer, martial artist, theatre, and film), but had no idea that he was an amateur historian too.

Re: William Adams: English Advisor to the Shogun

#38

Post by the_af »

zer00eyz wrote: post #32
steveoscaro wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't tell if you're in or out of the know on the "true story" part haha

I grew up in Sandy Hook, part of Newtown. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Helle_Crafts This woman's murder was the inspiration for Fargo.

The Coen Brothers have changed the explanation multiple times; the movie claims to be "exactly how it happened" (always took this as a joke), the DVD claims it was inspired in the murder you mentioned, and still in 2015 they claimed the story is completely made up...

Re: William Adams: English Advisor to the Shogun

#39

Post by the_af »

riku_iki wrote: post #25
ProjectArcturis wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always wondered about the accuracy of the book, in part because the junior samurai kill themselves a LOT. They're forced to commit seppuku for being late to their work in the morning. There's a scene where a samurai jumps off a cliff to his death just get his boss's attention (I guess yelling would have been rude). Also ninjas are depicted as super-powerful badasses. Which fits the legend, certainly, but isn't p…

> This collection doesn't address those criticisms -- it's more of a literary analysis than a set of fact checks. many things likely can't be fact checked, e.g. what kind of warriors/spies ninjas really were.

True, it's hard to tell fact from fiction, especially because much of what is known about samurai, ninja, the whole "bushido" nonsense, comes from the later Edo period, in many cases by writers who were romanticizing the olden days.

I think most mainstream historians believe ninjas (as depicted in pop culture: assassins clad in black, with almost supernatural infiltration abilities, armed with shuriken, "opposed" to the samurai, etc) are completely fictional. There were spies and some jizamurai engaged in guerrilla tactics and wrote some books about it, and that's about it.

Re: William Adams: English Advisor to the Shogun

#40

Post by the_af »

kaycebasques wrote: post #26
AnarchismIsCool wrote: post #8

Hypothetically, would he have been on Mizu's list?

I'm also wondering if the story is inspired by Adams. For anyone not familiar with the "Mizu's list" reference, we're talking about the Netflix animated series Blue Eye Samurai . It's got more graphic violence than I usually enjoy but is a really good story.

It's gory but the fight sequences are really well done, almost ballet-like.

One of the best Netflix shows of late, I really recommend it.

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