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Paris & Berlin – The tale of two cities (Part 1: The facts you can’t ignore)

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Re: Paris & Berlin – The tale of two cities (Part 1: The facts you can’t ignore)

#11

Post by masklinn »

pdelgallego wrote: post #9
bergie wrote: post #4

I moved to Berlin from Helsinki (another regional start-up hub) last March: http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/hacker-nomadism/ There are several things that I've been positively surprised about: * Cost of living is really cheap. Now when I travel to France or Finland I feel everything is expensive there * Berlin is very well connected with rest of Europe (trains, flights) * The hacker scene here is great (huge meetups, etc)…

> Since moving inside Europe is really simple, I'd urge anybody curious to take a shot and stay here for a while. Not everywhere in the EU, I moved to Denmark almost two years ago, and I am completely sure that the Danish system was designed to keep people out of their border. Simple tasks like open a bank account are a troublesome for even EU citizens

> Simple tasks like open a bank account are a troublesome for even EU citizens

Could you give some details of that?

Re: Paris & Berlin – The tale of two cities (Part 1: The facts you can’t ignore)

#12

Post by derrida »

pdelgallego wrote: post #9
bergie wrote: post #4

I moved to Berlin from Helsinki (another regional start-up hub) last March: http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/hacker-nomadism/ There are several things that I've been positively surprised about: * Cost of living is really cheap. Now when I travel to France or Finland I feel everything is expensive there * Berlin is very well connected with rest of Europe (trains, flights) * The hacker scene here is great (huge meetups, etc)…

> Since moving inside Europe is really simple, I'd urge anybody curious to take a shot and stay here for a while. Not everywhere in the EU, I moved to Denmark almost two years ago, and I am completely sure that the Danish system was designed to keep people out of their border. Simple tasks like open a bank account are a troublesome for even EU citizens

To open bank account in Germany you must be a resident or have a work/student visa. The Czech Republic will let anyone open a bank account however, but double check. Just some things I learnt last time I was in Europe on a tourist visa.

Re: Paris & Berlin – The tale of two cities (Part 1: The facts you can’t ignore)

#13

Post by bad_user »

Robin_Message wrote: post #8
gulbrandr wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

interesting: http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=tomdtpink

Hijacked? Been around a long time to start trolling now.

The last sane comment was made 589 days ago. The account was probably hijacked.

Re: Paris & Berlin – The tale of two cities (Part 1: The facts you can’t ignore)

#14

Post by zeemonkee »

bergie wrote: post #4

I moved to Berlin from Helsinki (another regional start-up hub) last March: http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/hacker-nomadism/ There are several things that I've been positively surprised about: * Cost of living is really cheap. Now when I travel to France or Finland I feel everything is expensive there * Berlin is very well connected with rest of Europe (trains, flights) * The hacker scene here is great (huge meetups, etc)…

> bureaucracy is ten years behind Finland. You still need to visit an office to get anything done instead of doing things over the browser

I found this to be the case when moving to Finland; the amount of bureaucracy needed to get started as a foreigner, even one from the EU, is insane (from a British perspective).

- register with tax office

- register with KELA (you'd think registering as a taxpayer would be sufficent; but no)

- register with the Maistratti (um...)

- register with police station (hey, I've just given my address details to the tax office, KELA, and Maistratti, but let's waste another half a day in a police station in middle of nowhere, Espoo).

But whatever, glad to be doing my part to support the National Bureaucrat Jobs Program.

Re: Paris & Berlin – The tale of two cities (Part 1: The facts you can’t ignore)

#15

Post by derrida »

bergie wrote: post #5
bergie wrote: post #4

I moved to Berlin from Helsinki (another regional start-up hub) last March: http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/hacker-nomadism/ There are several things that I've been positively surprised about: * Cost of living is really cheap. Now when I travel to France or Finland I feel everything is expensive there * Berlin is very well connected with rest of Europe (trains, flights) * The hacker scene here is great (huge meetups, etc)…

C-base ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-base ) and co-up ( http://co-up.de/ ) would probably be good starting points for a visiting hacker. I've also heard a lot of start-up people hang out in Sankt Oberholz ( http://www.sanktoberholz.de/?lang=en ), but I have no personal experience on that one.

There are also a number of other hacker-spaces and the Chaos Computer Club. There is one hacker space devoted entirely to the intersection between Textiles and Electronics. Just a warning, Berlin is not the valley. It is it's own unique and awesome thing. A huge proportion of the hacking community couldn't care less about start ups. But it is a large community, and I can't speak for everyone.

Re: Paris & Berlin – The tale of two cities (Part 1: The facts you can’t ignore)

#16

Post by mseebach »

zeemonkee wrote: post #14
bergie wrote: post #4

I moved to Berlin from Helsinki (another regional start-up hub) last March: http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/hacker-nomadism/ There are several things that I've been positively surprised about: * Cost of living is really cheap. Now when I travel to France or Finland I feel everything is expensive there * Berlin is very well connected with rest of Europe (trains, flights) * The hacker scene here is great (huge meetups, etc)…

> bureaucracy is ten years behind Finland. You still need to visit an office to get anything done instead of doing things over the browser I found this to be the case when moving to Finland; the amount of bureaucracy needed to get started as a foreigner, even one from the EU, is insane (from a British perspective). - register with tax office - register with KELA (you'd think registering as a taxpayer would be suffice…

Getting started as an EU foreigner in UK:

- HMRC

- Council tax

- NI number

- Local doctor

- Voter registration

Never mind that even doing all that, most companies still don't think you exist because you don't appear on credit checks. Granted, most of these can be done via mail (someone should really introduce the British public service to the interwebs one of these days), the bureaucracy in Berlin is hardly uniquely bad from a British perspective :)

Re: Paris & Berlin – The tale of two cities (Part 1: The facts you can’t ignore)

#17

Post by mseebach »

masklinn wrote: post #11
pdelgallego wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since moving inside Europe is really simple, I'd urge anybody curious to take a shot and stay here for a while. Not everywhere in the EU, I moved to Denmark almost two years ago, and I am completely sure that the Danish system was designed to keep people out of their border. Simple tasks like open a bank account are a troublesome for even EU citizens

> Simple tasks like open a bank account are a troublesome for even EU citizens Could you give some details of that?

So, there are EU regulations in place that are supposed to make money laundering harder. This raises the bar everywhere.

I suppose he's not referring directly to a bank account, but to our lovely home grown credit-masking-as-debit-card "Dankort" without which you might as well not have a bank account. Since they are in fact credit cards, banks are reluctant handing these out to people they might never see again.

Re: Paris & Berlin – The tale of two cities (Part 1: The facts you can’t ignore)

#18

Post by pimeys »

bergie wrote: post #4

I moved to Berlin from Helsinki (another regional start-up hub) last March: http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/hacker-nomadism/ There are several things that I've been positively surprised about: * Cost of living is really cheap. Now when I travel to France or Finland I feel everything is expensive there * Berlin is very well connected with rest of Europe (trains, flights) * The hacker scene here is great (huge meetups, etc)…

I moved to Berlin also from Helsinki last autumn to work in a start-up.

What I should add to your list is the open-mindedness of the people: it is one of the most liberal places I've ever been. People are nice, the police won't arrest you so easily for spending a splendid day in a local park and of course the nightlife.

When I visited Berkeley and New York this spring, it was really a joy to be back home.

Re: Paris & Berlin – The tale of two cities (Part 1: The facts you can’t ignore)

#19

Post by hnhg »

mseebach wrote: post #16
zeemonkee wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> bureaucracy is ten years behind Finland. You still need to visit an office to get anything done instead of doing things over the browser I found this to be the case when moving to Finland; the amount of bureaucracy needed to get started as a foreigner, even one from the EU, is insane (from a British perspective). - register with tax office - register with KELA (you'd think registering as a taxpayer would be suffice…

Getting started as an EU foreigner in UK: - HMRC - Council tax - NI number - Local doctor - Voter registration Never mind that even doing all that, most companies still don't think you exist because you don't appear on credit checks. Granted, most of these can be done via mail (someone should really introduce the British public service to the interwebs one of these days), the bureaucracy in Berlin is hardly uniquely…

Yeah, and getting hold of the HRMC or any of these bodies over the phone can be very difficult. Apologies for that. I once got hit by a HMRC error and it was impossible for me to reach them to correct it while they fined me. Of course, they didn't admit that it was their error and that I took too long to get back to them...

Re: Paris & Berlin – The tale of two cities (Part 1: The facts you can’t ignore)

#20

Post by zeemonkee »

mseebach wrote: post #16
zeemonkee wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> bureaucracy is ten years behind Finland. You still need to visit an office to get anything done instead of doing things over the browser I found this to be the case when moving to Finland; the amount of bureaucracy needed to get started as a foreigner, even one from the EU, is insane (from a British perspective). - register with tax office - register with KELA (you'd think registering as a taxpayer would be suffice…

Getting started as an EU foreigner in UK: - HMRC - Council tax - NI number - Local doctor - Voter registration Never mind that even doing all that, most companies still don't think you exist because you don't appear on credit checks. Granted, most of these can be done via mail (someone should really introduce the British public service to the interwebs one of these days), the bureaucracy in Berlin is hardly uniquely…

All good points - from a foreigner's perspective in either country.

I think the key here is not web/non-web but the government in question having an intelligent, joined-up registration system.

In the case of Finland, once I'd registered with the tax office my address and other details should have been registered in the system. KELA would be notified - along with all my income details - and the magistrate and police would have up-to-date records. Done, one visit to one office.

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