Please Learn to Code • Hacker News Board

Re: Please Learn to Code

#131

Post by agentultra » Tue, May 15, 2012, 10:20 PM UTC

cageface wrote: post #59

agentultra wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3. You never dispute or even address the main point behind Atwood's article - that while programming is great to learn, the trend that 'everyone should learn to program' as a base skill along with reading, writing, and math is ridiculous. It's nowhere near as important as these other skills, and he makes a number of other valid points as well which I'm sure you don't disagree with. You argument was simply that progra…

As computers permeate more of our everyday lives it becomes necessary to understand them on some level. I vehemently disagree on this. Apple has made a silly fortune proving the contrary. If you need deep understanding of a device to make it useful then the designers have failed to provide you with the right abstractions.

I like some of Apple's products. I don't disagree that design is important and that the interface should hide the complexity where the complexity is meaningless to the use experience.

However, that has nothing to do with the point I was making.

Re: Please Learn to Code

#132

Post by mns2 » Tue, May 15, 2012, 10:23 PM UTC

Both of these blog posts are stupid. They should both really be saying "Please learn more about the world in order to better accomplish your goals." Sometimes it's useful to learn how to code because it teaches a different way of thinking. Sometimes it's more useful to just learn how to think differently. These choices depend on a lot of things, but one is more optimal than the other for any particular scenario. If I could get everyone in the world to read a few articles on rationality, I would, because it wouldn't take long and the people who could understand it would really get something out of it. If I could get everyone in the world to learn how to code, I wouldn't, because it would take longer and I expect far fewer people to get value out of it. I can't do either of these though, so both are pretty useless to consider. People toss around information more and more quickly these days, so it might be useful to share a bit of philosophy. Tell people to try hard. Tell people to learn. Tell people to find out about the things they don't know, to see if they could help them. Tell people to reevaluate their goals, to find which contradict each other and to sort themselves out. Be kind or they won't listen. Don't be patronizing in your kindness, or they won't listen. If you want to help people become better, do it for yourself first. Learn more, become smarter, try harder, do better, and eventually the people around you just might see it and start doing it, too. Or maybe after a while you'll start helping other people become better. There are still people who suffer today. Sometimes you can't help them; sometimes you can.

Re: Please Learn to Code

#133

Post by joe_the_user » Tue, May 15, 2012, 10:51 PM UTC

VolatileVoid wrote: post #42

I'm actually kind of tired of hearing, "there's no other field that lets you create something from nothing" vis a vis programming. Look: I LOVE coding. I LOVE programming. I think it's fun and challenging, etc. etc. But it's not the only creative outlet that has ever existed. Have you considered a pencil and a paper? Crayons? Markers? Paints and a canvas? A hammer, some wood and some nails? "Ah, but that requires som…

Wait,

You don't have claim that programming is the bestest, most creative and constructive thing ever to say that programming has a mix of creative, constructive activity that is unique to it and can be uniquely satisfying in a certain way (just as painting, dance, martial arts and system administration have their unique aspects).

Re: Please Learn to Code

#134

Post by zanny » Tue, May 15, 2012, 10:54 PM UTC

danso wrote: post #62

edw519 wrote: post #47

Think about it: something I did reached 10,000 actual living people and had an impact (however small) on their life. That would never have been possible if I didn’t know how to code. (ability to code) != (eyeballs reached) I've written blog posts viewed by 100,000 people in one day. I've also written software used by 1 person to save millions of dollars. Both are rewarding, but I'd still rather build something. I thi…

(ability to code) != (eyeballs reached) Not directly, maybe. But having some acknowledgment of basic data principles (particularly delimitation, meta-ness, maybe even regexes) can substantially increase your ability to write digitally. Markdown, for instance. And of course, being able to maintain or customize an existing platform, whether it's WordPress or Tumblr. It's sad to say, but delimitation is not a skill that…

I have a BS in CS and have tried so many times, even learn regex the hard way, and still can't remember the special characters and how they interact. Oh the pain.

Re: Please Learn to Code

#135

Post by jaems33 » Tue, May 15, 2012, 10:59 PM UTC

cageface wrote: post #60

dholowiski wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but mastering a pencil and paper is going to have fairly limited benifits, compared to understanding how a computer works (considering that nearly everything you do has something to do with a computer).

Actually I think real art & design skills are already becoming more valuable than basic coding skills. As software becomes more and more about aesthetics and human interaction a really good designer with a strong style is going to be more valuable than the typical code monkey. I know if I had it all to do over again I might trade my math & science classes for drawing.

Ah, that is until you look at the average salaries for developers versus designers.

Heck, even look at the average salaries of illustrators vs. graphic designers.

It's also MUCH easier for a developer to bootstrap and start a project on their own (be it a app, website, or add-on) than a designer/illustrator. The latter group can start some interesting projects on their own without needing to code but they are GENERALLY less scalable and lucrative.

Re: Please Learn to Code

#136

Post by guscost » Tue, May 15, 2012, 11:47 PM UTC

Here's my take: C is a precise language, in a certain sense, whereas English is not. If I can successfully communicate information to another person using C, that person can put a lot of trust in their understanding of my idea. Precise languages are very useful, and everyone should learn that they exist, if nothing else.

Re: Please Learn to Code

#137

Post by SomeCallMeTim » Wed, May 16, 2012, 12:51 AM UTC

VolatileVoid wrote: post #42

I'm actually kind of tired of hearing, "there's no other field that lets you create something from nothing" vis a vis programming. Look: I LOVE coding. I LOVE programming. I think it's fun and challenging, etc. etc. But it's not the only creative outlet that has ever existed. Have you considered a pencil and a paper? Crayons? Markers? Paints and a canvas? A hammer, some wood and some nails? "Ah, but that requires som…

I doubt anyone is actually claiming that programming is the only field in which you can create; that's a pretty thin strawman argument. But programming IS the highest leverage means of creation invented, however.

I say this as a programmer, photographer, woodworker, electronics hacker, and musician. Nothing else comes close to programming in how much you can create with so little.

In fact, programming can help you with ALL of the other hobbies I occasionally indulge in. Being able to write music doesn't make me a better photographer.

And you really are creating from nothing; you could create an app at your local library if you had some kind of programming skill but no access to a computer of your own. If I lost everything but still had access to libraries, I would still be able to do programming work.

Only in digital photography are you "creating from nothing"; every other hobby I have requires you to use up consumables, and every one of those hobbies have involved investments in equipment greater than what I spent on my latest laptop.

I couldn't create anything interesting with pencil and paper myself, and I would also suggest that it would take FAR more skill in drawing to begin to make a living using pencil and paper than it would skill in, say, web development, to make a living creating web pages.

I KNOW web developers who are barely "programmers" compared to what I know about programming who do a good job and make a good living working on web sites for people. That kind of range of skill can only exist because of the extreme leverage you get from knowing anything at all about programming.

Yes, programming IS different.

Re: Please Learn to Code

#138

Post by SomeCallMeTim » Wed, May 16, 2012, 1:11 AM UTC

cageface wrote: post #59

agentultra wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3. You never dispute or even address the main point behind Atwood's article - that while programming is great to learn, the trend that 'everyone should learn to program' as a base skill along with reading, writing, and math is ridiculous. It's nowhere near as important as these other skills, and he makes a number of other valid points as well which I'm sure you don't disagree with. You argument was simply that progra…

As computers permeate more of our everyday lives it becomes necessary to understand them on some level. I vehemently disagree on this. Apple has made a silly fortune proving the contrary. If you need deep understanding of a device to make it useful then the designers have failed to provide you with the right abstractions.

>I vehemently disagree on this. Apple has made a silly fortune proving the contrary.

Totally orthogonal.

Apple cares about UI and attractive industrial design, and was the first companies to really get that in the computer space (and later in the MP3, smart phone, and tablet spaces). Good UI design is good for experts and novices alike. Do you really think that most people who used DOS computers once upon a time would really want to go back to 100% command-line interactions? (Yes, I know there are exceptions in the Unix crowd who swear that vi IS sliced bread and that anything not on the command line sucks...but there are probably 10x as many "expert" developers who swear by GUIs. Can't please everyone.)

The key difference is that, if you shy away from programming, there are huge categories of things you will never be able to do. And until you know how to program, you won't even know what those things are.

The "learning to read" analogy (elsewhere in this thread) is good. It's a powerful skill that, until you know it, you don't even know what it is you're missing.

Re: Please Learn to Code

#139

Post by sgdesign » Wed, May 16, 2012, 2:44 AM UTC

SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #137

VolatileVoid wrote: post #42

I'm actually kind of tired of hearing, "there's no other field that lets you create something from nothing" vis a vis programming. Look: I LOVE coding. I LOVE programming. I think it's fun and challenging, etc. etc. But it's not the only creative outlet that has ever existed. Have you considered a pencil and a paper? Crayons? Markers? Paints and a canvas? A hammer, some wood and some nails? "Ah, but that requires som…

I doubt anyone is actually claiming that programming is the only field in which you can create; that's a pretty thin strawman argument. But programming IS the highest leverage means of creation invented, however. I say this as a programmer, photographer, woodworker, electronics hacker, and musician. Nothing else comes close to programming in how much you can create with so little. In fact, programming can help you wi…

I think this is the key to this debate: in the importance range of all the skills one can learn, where does programming fall?

Nobody would argue that plumbing and talking have similar importance and value. But what about plumbing and programming? Or programming or reading?

I personally believe that programming is closer to reading than to plumbing for a majority of people. I'm glad to see you feel the same!

Re: Please Learn to Code

#140

Post by sgdesign » Wed, May 16, 2012, 2:49 AM UTC

timwiseman wrote: post #96

danso wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but code is the one of the rare things that can multiply your efforts...in the same way that a it'd be useful to be able to construct wheels and levers before the industrial age. But code goes further than that; since so much of our world is now digital, it multiplies these efforts in virtually every field, including the arts (there's a niche to be filled in custom automating the batch processing done in the pho…

This is true, but the same can be said of being a great writer. George Orwell set out to have an impact on the world and he is still doing so long after his death because of the strength of his writing. The same can be said of being a great orator. Cicero is still known today largely for his oratory skills, and similar skills have served president Obama. So does being a great biologist and research doctor. Edward Jen…

It is not the only thing that can, but then again not all things have the same multiplication coefficient.

Clearly being a great writer, orator, or doctor have high coefficients. Being a great plumber probably has a lower coefficient. Being a great doorman might be still lower on the scale. (I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being a doorman, just taking it as an example of a skill with a low change-the-world coefficient)

I think all things being equal, it's better to learn things with a high coefficient. Of course personal enjoyment is important too, so when I say "everyone should learn to code" I'm of course not advocating forcing people to learn to code against their will…