"What caused the obesity epidemic?" "And it’s something very simple, very obvious, something that few want to hear: The epidemic was caused by the overproduction of food in the United States. ...This, of course, is a tremendously controversial idea. However, the model shows that increase in food more than explains the increase in weight." This is analogous to saying: "What caused the increase in car accidents?" "And…
> I would argue the problem isn't the quantity, rather the quality But you didn't, argue. You simply asserted. You threw out the article's theory by constructing a straw-man you didn't even bother tearing down, then proceeded to inform us of your views.
A Mathematical Challenge to Obesity
21–30 of 100 posts
Re: A Mathematical Challenge to Obesity
#22"An extra 10 calories a day puts more weight onto an obese person than on a thinner one." It needs to be explained how he determined that this isn't related to _why_ they are obese in the first place, i.e. whether these are purely correlational facts. It would be nice if the New York Times wasn't susceptible to elementary statistical fallacies like this but... well this is nutrition after all.
There was a documentary on HBO recently that stated this as well. What's going on is that someone who is obese needs less calories per day to maintain their weight than someone who is not obese. Something to do with metabolism rates slowing down when you are overweight. See "Weight of the nation."
For instance, I just tried http://caloriecount.about.com/cc/calories-goal.php (after googling it out of the blue) with starting weights of 300 and 200, ten pounds to lose both ways, everything else the same. The calculator suggested the 200 pound guy needed to eat 500 calories a day fewer than the 300 pound guy did.
Re: A Mathematical Challenge to Obesity
#23However, if someone would like to start a diet-centered startup with me, I believe I have an insight that invalidates every diet book on the planet.
Every diet book on the planet makes one very false assumption. Before we get to the assumption, let's review something uncontroversial:
- You put on fat by eating more calories than you use; and you lose fat by using more calories than you eat.
In other words, losing fat (beating obesity) would seem to be a combination of "diet and fitness". If you like, you can view every diet book on the planet as a combination of strategies that fall into those two categories (eat less or use more of the calories).
So how can ALL those strategies be wrong?
Let's turn the equation "net fat gain = calories in - calories out" into something more familiar. "net bank account gain = money in - money out."
is it really so simple? Yes. Everyone who weighs more than they want has more money in their bank account (more Calories on their body, ready to burn off) than they want.
Now to get to the big diet books' fallacy, let's turn this around. You're a multimillionaire and want to lose half of your money. What's the easiest way to do it? The easiest way to do it, if you're a millionaire, is to call up your accountant and say, "I would like to donate half of my money to Bill and Melinda Gates foundation, please arrange this."
That's a strategy. You can write it down on a piece of paper and fax it to your accountant with your signature on the bottom, after a few more signatures it's done.
So, what is the difference between THIS strategy and a DIET strategy? Simple: When you wrote that down to fax your your accountant (or booked a hotel room by email, or booked an appointment with a repairperson, contractor, whatever, basically anything like that) then the strategy you wrote down and faxed, in that fax, had the effect that the person it addresses WILL OBEY YOUR COMMAND. They will follow your strategy.
Whereas, if you decide "every morning 5 pushups" and write it down, even if you fax it to yourself that does NOT mean that its recipient (you) will do 5 pushups the next morning.
In other words, every diet book on the planet thinks that you are the boss of the person doing the dieting and exercising, and simply have to micromanage what they do.
But you are NOT the boss of you. Let's recap.
Writing:
"Dear ---, After careful deliberation I have decided that I will immediately be donating 1/2 of all of my wealth to the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation. Please liquidate an appropriate portion of my investments in stocks, bonds, and mutual funds (in equal measure) for me to to be able to donate half of my net worth, and then prepare the donation for my signature. Yours truly,"
now it will start to happen, and another signature or two and it's done. (Even if this was considerable work for the accountant!!!)
Now write down: "Starting tomorrow morning, as soon as you wake up please ensure your first action is to do 5 pushups and 5 situps. For seven days do so, then for the next week do 10 of each, the next week 15 of each, then 20, and os on, until you reach 50 of each (after 10 weeks), which you should keep doing indefinitely. Yours truly, yours truly."
Simple strategy, right? Only problem is, if you fax it to yourself, I can almost guarantee you that the recipient of the fax will not do what you want. Even if you sign it. Even if you really, really want you recipient to follow through. They won't.
Every single diet book makes the SINGULAR mistake of thinking that its reader is free to choose a strategy of consumption and of exercise. Not so: the reader can agree with every word. Unlike agreeing with every word of investment advice that a rich person can order an accountant to follow through on, the reader of any diet book has no such power to order that a strategy (of either diet or of exercise) be executed.
- read about Tahiti, decide you want to see it, call your travel agent and have them book a room in Tahiti, and a room will be booked in Tahiti.
- read a fad diet, decide you want to see the results, and... no guarantee you will have a chance to see them.
In sum, if you see what is wrong with the present offering, please email me for collobaring on an interesting alternative.
Re: A Mathematical Challenge to Obesity
#24"What caused the obesity epidemic?" "And it’s something very simple, very obvious, something that few want to hear: The epidemic was caused by the overproduction of food in the United States. ...This, of course, is a tremendously controversial idea. However, the model shows that increase in food more than explains the increase in weight." This is analogous to saying: "What caused the increase in car accidents?" "And…
Cut food production, food prices rise, people can't eat as much. It's an extreme solution, perhaps, and one with more political obstacles than I care to think about right now, but it seems "addressable" to me. What if we stopped some of the farm subsidies that don't make sense? What if we significantly increased taxes on unhealthy foods, which is probably justified since unhealthy foods probably directly lead to a rise in healthcare costs down the line? (Now I get to sit back and wait for someone to post facts from one or more of the localities that have tried raising taxes on e.g. sugary foods. I love the Internet!)
Re: A Mathematical Challenge to Obesity
#25Earlier quoted context omitted.
There was a documentary on HBO recently that stated this as well. What's going on is that someone who is obese needs less calories per day to maintain their weight than someone who is not obese. Something to do with metabolism rates slowing down when you are overweight. See "Weight of the nation."
Except that's completely backwards to any "calories needed" calculation I've ever heard before. For instance, I just tried http://caloriecount.about.com/cc/calories-goal.php (after googling it out of the blue) with starting weights of 300 and 200, ten pounds to lose both ways, everything else the same. The calculator suggested the 200 pound guy needed to eat 500 calories a day fewer than the 300 pound guy did.
If experimental data says otherwise, the calculator is simply wrong.
Re: A Mathematical Challenge to Obesity
#26Earlier quoted context omitted.
There was a documentary on HBO recently that stated this as well. What's going on is that someone who is obese needs less calories per day to maintain their weight than someone who is not obese. Something to do with metabolism rates slowing down when you are overweight. See "Weight of the nation."
Except that's completely backwards to any "calories needed" calculation I've ever heard before. For instance, I just tried http://caloriecount.about.com/cc/calories-goal.php (after googling it out of the blue) with starting weights of 300 and 200, ten pounds to lose both ways, everything else the same. The calculator suggested the 200 pound guy needed to eat 500 calories a day fewer than the 300 pound guy did.
In other words, suppose the obese guy needs 3500 calories a day to maintain his weight, and the skinny guy needs 2000. Then I guess it might be true that if the obese guy eats 3510 calories a day, he will gain weight faster than the skinny guy eating 2010. That seems counter-intuitive but at least plausible.
Re: A Mathematical Challenge to Obesity
#27Re: A Mathematical Challenge to Obesity
#28 "And it’s something very simple, very obvious,
something that few want to hear: The epidemic was
caused by the overproduction of food in the United
States."
Overproduction? Does a factory intentionally produce more cars than it can sell? Probably not. How about a baker? Does a baker produce more cookies than she can sell? Not for long. Maybe a farmer? No. Not really. That is not an economically sustainable position to take.If we take the "overproduction" assertion as fact, this begs the question: Why is this happening?
One answer is that consumers have more money to spend and they are choosing to spend some of it buying (and consuming) more food. Fair enough.
Another answer could be that, in certain segments, government geniuses decided they know better than to let free market work. They go in and throw money around to make producers do what they would not under normal circumstances. That triggers over-production of certain goods. Which triggers lower prices. Which triggers higher consumption. And so on.
Another possible answer is a combination of the above. I am, admittedly, against government meddling in our lives. I want them out of nearly everything. Go throw parties for foreign dignitaries and balance our books. Maybe do a few more things. Oh, yes, those borders. Deal with them will ya? Any time these guys dip their ignorant toes into the water of our lives they invariably create a mess that our children and our children's children will have to pay for.
Of course, this philosophy extends to self-responsibility. In my family we might have a soft drink or two at parties here and there. Just like having ice-cream, in moderation it is an occasional treat. Aside from that, water only. What the hell is wrong with people that go into a gas station and order a 64 ounce soft drink? That's like consuming a cup full of sugar while you drive to work.
This is where another angle in this equation comes into play: A third-payer system of health does not penalize bad behavior. Someone who is a complete moron when it comes to how they take care of their bodies and what they put into it should suffer the financial consequence of having to pay a lot more for healthcare. Today, those of us who try to be sensible are paying for the idiots who are not. That is fundamentally wrong.
If you want a healthy and slim population, again, get government the hell out of the way. Yes, it can be that simple. Don't manipulate markets and don't get involved in healthcare. People should buy and pay for their own health insurance, just like they do car insurance. If you drive like a mad-man and get tickets and accidents your insurance goes up or it could be cancelled. The end result is that people modify their behavior to what is a financially sensible state.
The same would happen with healthcare if people were directly responsible for their own insurance and suffered the consequences of their dumb decisions. Smoke and destroyed your lungs? Your insurance should cost you $50K per year. Enjoy. Drink alcohol like an animal and turned your liver into mush? $75K a year. Have fun. The rest of us would have sensible policies which would reward us for being responsible while covering us in the case of catastrophic events or serious illness outside of our control.
To be clear, I don't have a problem contributing to the pot to help out those afflicted with cancer or similar horrible diseases. A portion of everyone's premiums would cover these out-of-the-norm cases. Then there's the case of obesity caused by diseases like Cushings Syndrome (pituitary gland tumor) that's potentially deadly and has nothing to do with over-eating. We need to collectively help those people. Nothing wrong with that.
I do have a problem supporting the moron who has a Double Big-Gulp every day chased by a large pizza and no exercise other than playing XBox for hours every day.
That said, the app for the model looks interesting. I had my basal metabolic rate measured last year before I started a Master's Swimming program. I like numbers and wanted to have some data. It was 1850 kcal/day. According to the Human Weight Simulator I have to consume 2576 kcal/day to maintain my weight. That, for some reason, feels way too high. I haven't counted calories in a long time, but might do it for a few weeks just to get a sense of what this model is doing. I doubt that I am consuming much more than 1700 kcal/day on average. But, I could be wrong.
I'd be nice if they released a paper with this equation the article mentions. Is that published anywhere?
Re: A Mathematical Challenge to Obesity
#29The "calories in/calories out" argument is based on the assumption that the human body is a closed system. This is simply not the case, and touting it as a diet strategy is irresponsible. You might lose weight if you lower your caloric intake by only eating 1 McDonalds cheeseburger a day instead of 2, but in the end you are still eating crap food "product", and you won't be as healthy as you could be by focusing on t…
Re: A Mathematical Challenge to Obesity
#30You are an M.I.T.-trained mathematician and physicist. How did you come to work on obesity? ...I didn’t even know what a calorie was. I call bullshit.
Exaggeration for effect? It's perfectly plausible that a mathematician / physicist would have a weak layman's understanding of energy balance in nutrition.