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Study puts fermented foods, not fire, as pivotal moment in human brain growth

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Re: Study puts fermented foods, not fire, as pivotal moment in human brain growth

#211

Post by dotancohen »

improv wrote: post #206
tomp wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's large parts of the food world that are completely inaccessible to humans. Most plant material (i.e. "fiber", digestible by e.g. cows), carion, most raw meat (if we ate what dogs ate, we'd have constant stomach issues...)

>carion, most raw meat (if we ate what dogs ate, we'd have constant stomach issues...) Humans have extremely acidic stomach acid (1.5 - 3.5 pH), close to that of vultures and dogs (1 - 2 pH). Early humans and their predecessors, were very likely (at least partially) carrion feeders, and consumed raw meat for millions of years before they started cooking.

Fresh raw meat, yes. Not carrion.

Re: Study puts fermented foods, not fire, as pivotal moment in human brain growth

#212

Post by FrustratedMonky »

giantg2 wrote: post #204
FrustratedMonky wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

human pathogens can't live in alcohol. so a low alcohol liquid would be sterile and healthy for humans. brain health isn't the big factor, it is outweighed by the not heaving out your guts by food poisoning.

"human pathogens can't live in alcohol. so a low alcohol liquid would be sterile and healthy for humans." This isn't true at all. Beer can go bad and give you food poisoning.

Bad Taste, not kill you.

There are a ton of other studies exploring how beer/wine fermentation for alcohol also contributed to early human growth. Precisely because of this property.

Re: Study puts fermented foods, not fire, as pivotal moment in human brain growth

#213

Post by FrustratedMonky »

hilux wrote: post #210
FrustratedMonky wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was an article in 'plantbasednews', about a totally separately funded study that had a positive result for 'plants'. This is a site to report 'plant based news', reporting on a study about 'plants'. The site does not label itself as : "Completely un-biased news site weighing the thousands of studies dealing with all food types and providing equal 50-50 coverage of both plants and meat studies so people on the inte…

When "plant-based" is used as a euphemism for "vegan," I find that annoying and borderline dishonest. We all eat plants. Even lots of plants. But most of us are not vegan. So if these people are vegan and pushing a vegan agenda ... I wish they'd make it more clear than "plant based." Incidentally, kimchi is easy to make, delicious, and healthy. AND most kimchi recipes are not vegan - they include one or two fishy ing…

Totally separate. I do think as opposing arguments get more extreme, it skews each side. Then someone in the middle can look extreme.

There is just as strong an ideology and religious fervor around 'carnivore', and 'keto' communities.

Then when someone suggests eating some plants, they yell 'vegan'. And the more someone in the middle tries to argue 'no, really, you need some fiber', the more they yell back 'your vegan'.

If the person in the middle starts arguing back, and siting studies, the extreme side starts viewing them as extreme, even if they are in the middle.

Think the effect is called Overton Window.

I would hope no vegan would argue against Kimchi. Kimchi is great.

Re: Study puts fermented foods, not fire, as pivotal moment in human brain growth

#214

Post by LeonB »

giantg2 wrote: post #114
LeonB wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nature causes various food sources to ferment which is exploited by many animals.

Like what? Usually lacto fermenting requires a specific salt level. I know fruit tends to ferment, but that produces alcohol, which is a negative factor for brains.

> a negative factor for brains

try telling that to the parrots in the trees, they're a social animal and seem happy enough.

Re: Study puts fermented foods, not fire, as pivotal moment in human brain growth

#215

Post by improv »

dotancohen wrote: post #211
improv wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>carion, most raw meat (if we ate what dogs ate, we'd have constant stomach issues...) Humans have extremely acidic stomach acid (1.5 - 3.5 pH), close to that of vultures and dogs (1 - 2 pH). Early humans and their predecessors, were very likely (at least partially) carrion feeders, and consumed raw meat for millions of years before they started cooking.

Fresh raw meat, yes. Not carrion.

Yes, early humans were likely carrion feeders among other dietary strategies. Archaeological and anthropological evidence suggests that before developing tools and techniques for hunting, early hominins would have scavenged carcasses left by predators. This behavior would have allowed them to access a high-quality source of nutrients like protein and fat, which are crucial for brain development.

The use of tools made from stones to break open bones for marrow and to possibly butcher animals suggests that early humans exploited carcasses that they found or scavenged from other predators' kills. Marrow and brain tissue, which could be accessed by breaking open bones and skulls, are highly nutritious and would have been valuable food sources for early humans.

Over time, as hominins developed more sophisticated tools and techniques, they likely became more efficient hunters, gradually shifting from scavenging to actively hunting for their food. However, the practice of scavenging would have played a critical role in the dietary habits of early human ancestors and contributed to their evolutionary success.

https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/article/64/5/394/2754213

Re: Study puts fermented foods, not fire, as pivotal moment in human brain growth

#216

Post by kelipso »

giantg2 wrote: post #203
wil421 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lacto only requires a specific salt level to keep the bad bacteria out. I doubt caveman humans cared much about sanitary conditions. Also, I doubt the vessels they used would be air tight (except to expel gases) like the ones I use. Modern humans have genes to process alcohol and some populations don’t have the gene (Asian flushing). Alcohol and fermented fruit were probably sources of calories and drinkable water fo…

"Alcohol and fermented fruit were probably sources of calories and drinkable water for many populations." I'm questioning how this could have preceeded the formation of advanced brains at a level to contribute to the formation of advanced brains.

There are tons of articles about monkeys routinely eating fermented fruits, so advanced brains aren't required for that.

E.g. https://news.berkeley.edu/2022/03/30/monkeys-routinely-eat-f...

Re: Study puts fermented foods, not fire, as pivotal moment in human brain growth

#217

Post by vanattab »

wil421 wrote: post #131
giantg2 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like what? Usually lacto fermenting requires a specific salt level. I know fruit tends to ferment, but that produces alcohol, which is a negative factor for brains.

Lacto only requires a specific salt level to keep the bad bacteria out. I doubt caveman humans cared much about sanitary conditions. Also, I doubt the vessels they used would be air tight (except to expel gases) like the ones I use. Modern humans have genes to process alcohol and some populations don’t have the gene (Asian flushing). Alcohol and fermented fruit were probably sources of calories and drinkable water fo…

I bet they did care a great deal about food poisoning. A few days of vomiting and fever could be a death sentence.

Re: Study puts fermented foods, not fire, as pivotal moment in human brain growth

#218

Post by vanattab »

greggsy wrote: post #125
bsima wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could be both: Fermented meat from scavenging. Sounds gross but actually many cultures still have fermented meat products in their cuisine

It’s not outside the realms of possibility that the invention of fermented meats (which includes salami and other similar sausages) arose when humans decided to eat the intestines of hunted beasts, possibly well after they ate the more desirable portions.

Cultures have different definitions of what is the desirable portions. In some native american tribes the most desired cut of the bison was the raw liver with the contents of the gallbladder squirted on top.

Re: Study puts fermented foods, not fire, as pivotal moment in human brain growth

#219

Post by dotancohen »

improv wrote: post #215
dotancohen wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fresh raw meat, yes. Not carrion.

Yes, early humans were likely carrion feeders among other dietary strategies. Archaeological and anthropological evidence suggests that before developing tools and techniques for hunting, early hominins would have scavenged carcasses left by predators. This behavior would have allowed them to access a high-quality source of nutrients like protein and fat, which are crucial for brain development. The use of tools made…

Thank you.

Re: Study puts fermented foods, not fire, as pivotal moment in human brain growth

#220

Post by aszantu »

steve_adams_86 wrote: post #108
wirrbel wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are referring to sodium nitrite which is used (as part of curing salt) to preserve meats. Its also not terribly healthy in foods IIRC (of course its healthier to eat cured meat than to eat meat with Botulinum bacteria).

Nitrites in vegetables, unintuitively, aren’t bad for you whereas the ones in salami are, indirectly. The problem isn’t nitrates and nitrites themselves though, but rather what’s present when they’re digested. Something has to convert nitrates to nitrites, or you need to consume nitrites, then something has to activate the nitrites into something harmful. With meat, the presence of haem for example allows for the for…

could you just use sodium nitrate to salt your food? Like once a week or so?

edit: need=use

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