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Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

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Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#51

Post by bawolff »

farseer wrote: post #49
gadilif wrote: post #2

This is... not a surprise. Jews have lived in Islamic countries for centuries, and had very good relations with their Islamic neighbors. In fact, there are many Jews with Arab origins living in Israel today. Unfortunately, after WWII, most Arab countries forced the Jews living there to leave (mostly to Israel). There are minor Jewish communities in some Islamic states still, but in recent decades this is very rare (t…

The fact that Israel carried out an intimidation campaign against Iraqi Jews to force them to immigrate is pretty much a mainstream historical discourse.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1950%E2%80%931951_Baghdad_bomb...

The source you link to seems to indicate that this is not an accepted historical fact but very much disputed who precisely did what.

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#52

Post by bcbcocoxndkd »

ars wrote: post #45
g8oz wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zionism was prompted by what happened in Europe not in the Middle East. Literally 5 minutes of Googling will help you out here.

That's not really accurate. In relatively modern times: "The official beginning of the construction of the New Yishuv in Palestine is usually dated ... 1882, .... Jewish immigration to Palestine started in earnest. Most immigrants came from the Russian Empire" Russia is not in Europe. Going further back Zionism got a strong boost when Rome was the center of power in Europe. This was around 1,700 years before Islam ev…

[flagged]

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#53

Post by ars »

bcbcocoxndkd wrote: post #52
ars wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not really accurate. In relatively modern times: "The official beginning of the construction of the New Yishuv in Palestine is usually dated ... 1882, .... Jewish immigration to Palestine started in earnest. Most immigrants came from the Russian Empire" Russia is not in Europe. Going further back Zionism got a strong boost when Rome was the center of power in Europe. This was around 1,700 years before Islam ev…

[flagged]

> What? Both culturally and geographically this is false.

Russia is in Asia, not Europe. And Russian culture is quite different from Western European culture (although obviously the further East you go in Europe, and the closer to Russia, the more it becomes similar).

> And the modern Herzl version of Zionism

The "Herzl Zionism" is not different from the ancient Zionism. Not sure what you are talking about with altars and red cows.

Zionism means Jews want to live in Israel, which has been their homeland for over 3,000 years.

For some reason this bothers people, perhaps because Israel has been invaded so many times people try to forget that Israel is the homeland of the Jews, rather than any of the other invaders to the region.

And even if you want to talk about Herzl his idea was not in response to events in Europe, aside from the fact that it started in Russia not Europe, there was no specific event he was responding to. He was just responding to Antisemitism in general.

Some people think Israel was founded in response to the Holocaust, and while the Holocaust accelerated the matter, the return of Jews to their homeland in Israel was a movement that long predated the Holocaust. If not for Arabs and their frequent massacres of Jews, there would have been a LOT more Jews in Israel even before the Holocaust.

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#54

Post by [deleted] »

farseer wrote: post #49
gadilif wrote: post #2

This is... not a surprise. Jews have lived in Islamic countries for centuries, and had very good relations with their Islamic neighbors. In fact, there are many Jews with Arab origins living in Israel today. Unfortunately, after WWII, most Arab countries forced the Jews living there to leave (mostly to Israel). There are minor Jewish communities in some Islamic states still, but in recent decades this is very rare (t…

The fact that Israel carried out an intimidation campaign against Iraqi Jews to force them to immigrate is pretty much a mainstream historical discourse.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1950%E2%80%931951_Baghdad_bomb...

[deleted]

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#55

Post by DoItToMe81 »

gadilif wrote: post #2

This is... not a surprise. Jews have lived in Islamic countries for centuries, and had very good relations with their Islamic neighbors. In fact, there are many Jews with Arab origins living in Israel today. Unfortunately, after WWII, most Arab countries forced the Jews living there to leave (mostly to Israel). There are minor Jewish communities in some Islamic states still, but in recent decades this is very rare (t…

I've known Israelis and Arab Israelis. I would NOT call them 'first class citizens', there is discrimination codified into law and most state entities.

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#56

Post by aprilthird2021 »

ars wrote: post #31
wslh wrote: post #7

Probably most people ignore the good relationship between Jews and Arabs because it is not taught or communicated, sadly, often. They participated in math, medicine, astronomy, and philosophy.

It's probably not taught in the US, but it's certainly taught in Israel, but they also include the periods after that when Arabs started massacring and prosecuting Jews. It's not a single time period, a lot of stuff happened, and the relationship changed - and not because of Israel (history didn't start in 1948).

1000% the current state of Islamo-Judaic relations is because of Israel. I really cannot fathom what alternate reality is otherwise.

How you want to decide who to blame for what is a different story, but the fact is what it is. History didn't begin in 1948, but the formation of Israel (which began before WWII) is what kicked off the current colder than ice relations between the two religions.

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#57

Post by rat9988 »

hdlothia wrote: post #43
someotherperson wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are examples of widespread persecution, but this is incredibly low effort. Al-Mutawakkil (who was Uzbek and Greek, for what it's worth) was a psychopath that didn't represent the general Islamic view. The pressures he placed on Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians and even other internal Islamic sects was not a popular view. Christians were regularly teaming up with Muslims to riot against the bad leadership[0]. The…

I'm not sure the articles you cited are enough to prove that all of his decrees went un-enforced but I appreciate the rebuttal and added context. What we can both agree on is there was widespread persecution and the relationship was not as rosy as some would claim.

You seem hell-bent on not compromising with his position despite writing we can both agree. Can you agree that in the more-than-a-millenia of history there were some rosy relationships without widespread persecution too?

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#58

Post by bushbaba »

gadilif wrote: post #2

This is... not a surprise. Jews have lived in Islamic countries for centuries, and had very good relations with their Islamic neighbors. In fact, there are many Jews with Arab origins living in Israel today. Unfortunately, after WWII, most Arab countries forced the Jews living there to leave (mostly to Israel). There are minor Jewish communities in some Islamic states still, but in recent decades this is very rare (t…

Jewish Arab relations historically were ok, not something I’d call “very good”. Some paces better than others, some times better than others. Generally though Jews were still second class citizens in Arab nations.

Here’s a wiki article that captures some the past issues. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#59

Post by [deleted] »

farseer wrote: post #49
gadilif wrote: post #2

This is... not a surprise. Jews have lived in Islamic countries for centuries, and had very good relations with their Islamic neighbors. In fact, there are many Jews with Arab origins living in Israel today. Unfortunately, after WWII, most Arab countries forced the Jews living there to leave (mostly to Israel). There are minor Jewish communities in some Islamic states still, but in recent decades this is very rare (t…

The fact that Israel carried out an intimidation campaign against Iraqi Jews to force them to immigrate is pretty much a mainstream historical discourse.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1950%E2%80%931951_Baghdad_bomb...

[deleted]

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#60

Post by gattilorenz »

myth_drannon wrote: post #24
hersko wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what i understand, at the time this thing was made, Islamic society was more advanced and way better for jews than Christian Europe.

Right, while the Christian Europe was amidst a Dark Ages and was torturing and burning Jews and others, Islam was in its Golden Age period. Too bad it was short and Mongol hordes ended it, leaving a significant mark on the Islamic culture. Just realized we are witnessing at the moment two wars (there are more, but these two just get significant news coverage) by cultures who were scarred by Mongols - Russia and Islam…

The idea of "dark ages" is a myth (pun with the username intended), but if anything it applies to the early medieval age, which is exactly when anti-Jewish sentiment in Europe was... not very common, since persecution of Jews started later: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_antisemitism
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