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Electric car battery prices are going back down faster than expected (2023)

electrek.co

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Re: Electric car battery prices are going back down faster than expected (2023)

#51

Post by adolph »

dzhiurgis wrote: post #40
andrewmcwatters wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, much of their value is in the software, which replicates for nearly zero marginal cost. People have been saying this for decades now and conveniently forget that replacing CD cases with Internet downloads doesn't eliminate the fact that software engineering is expensive in itself. Crazy how TurboTax isn't $5 or Tesla FSD doesn't come standard. So much for zero marginal cost.

Both of your examples are kind of monopolies Is there any car software that’s “open”?

openpilot is an open source advanced driver assistance system that works on 250+ car models of Toyota, Hyundai, Honda, and many other brands

https://www.comma.ai/openpilot

Re: Electric car battery prices are going back down faster than expected (2023)

#52

Post by stephen_g »

jjtheblunt wrote: post #45
hefferbub wrote: post #16

I know most people don’t believe this, but it is likely that electric cars have a good chance of becoming far cheaper than ICE cars over the coming 5-10 years. EVs are complex, but in ways that are much more subject to economies of scale. For example, much of their value is in the software, which replicates for nearly zero marginal cost. Electric motor assembly is highly automatable and a fraction of the cost of asse…

You skipped the complex heat pump system needed to regulate battery pack temperatures (and used for cabin temps as well). BMW i4,i5,i7,iX built in mid to late 2023 use an outsourced system that widely failed in cold temps. Tesla has a famously ingenious simpler but efficient custom in house design.

This kind of comment is perplexing to me. I'm always really confused why people try to claim heat pumps are complicated because they're not really (especially compared to many of the systems in ICE cars). Most cars have even already contained a heat pump for many decades (an air conditioner is exactly the same, just moving heat the opposite direction. It literally takes one extra valve to make it bi-directional).

There are videos of hobbyists making heat pumps from compressors salvaged out of fridges or ice makers, and other scrounged parts, maybe an Arduino controlling it! They're amazingly simple when you see what they're made up of.

Sure, it sounds like there were problems with this system used in BMWs, but that's likely just a design issue. Pumping a coolant around a battery and then through a heat exchanger (that is part of the heat pump) is not that difficult compared to the cooling of an extremely complex internal combustion engine!

Re: Electric car battery prices are going back down faster than expected (2023)

#53

Post by jjtheblunt »

stephen_g wrote: post #52
jjtheblunt wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You skipped the complex heat pump system needed to regulate battery pack temperatures (and used for cabin temps as well). BMW i4,i5,i7,iX built in mid to late 2023 use an outsourced system that widely failed in cold temps. Tesla has a famously ingenious simpler but efficient custom in house design.

This kind of comment is perplexing to me. I'm always really confused why people try to claim heat pumps are complicated because they're not really (especially compared to many of the systems in ICE cars). Most cars have even already contained a heat pump for many decades (an air conditioner is exactly the same, just moving heat the opposite direction. It literally takes one extra valve to make it bi-directional). The…

Right: it’s not conceptually complex and Tesla, as i mentioned, shows such.

The parent comment to which i replied was listing significant systems in an EV, and hadn’t mentioned thermal regulation.

BMW’s outsourced Vitesco (part of Continental Power Trains originally) design differs in engineering (materials, components integration), with more disjoint components and more components therefore needing interconnections, and had cars (service bulletins applied to thousands) across Finland, Germany, Canada, US, UK, failing and leaking in a juncture not present on the Tesla design. (“Ask me how I know…twice.”)

Re: Electric car battery prices are going back down faster than expected (2023)

#54

Post by thelastgallon »

https://thedriven.io/2024/01/25/worlds-largest-ev-battery-ma...

"The CnEVPost article says the average price of square LFP battery cells in mid 2023 was around RMB 800 to RMB 900 per kWh. This means the price of an average 60 kWh battery pack will have dropped from $US6,776.00 to just $3,388.00 in just 12 months, saving EV manufacturers over $3,000 per vehicle."

Re: Electric car battery prices are going back down faster than expected (2023)

#55

Post by m463 »

ssl-3 wrote: post #38
pests wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anything is brake by wire, even that Lexus has a failsafe mode that ultimately is a direct physical connection. No saving parts there yet.

One-pedal mode exists on many EVs, wherein: A person can drive around (and come to a complete stop) without ever touching the brake pedal. If that isn't brake by wire, then what is?

that's assisted brakes.

-by-wire means there is a control with no physical connection to .

for example, older tesla cars can steer themselves, but the steering wheel still connects to the front wheels mechanically.

The newer cybertruck has a steer-by-wire. The wheels are turned side to side by motors, but the steering wheel is not mechanically hooked to it, it's just an electronic controller.

Re: Electric car battery prices are going back down faster than expected (2023)

#56

Post by dzhiurgis »

adolph wrote: post #51
dzhiurgis wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both of your examples are kind of monopolies Is there any car software that’s “open”?

openpilot is an open source advanced driver assistance system that works on 250+ car models of Toyota, Hyundai, Honda, and many other brands https://www.comma.ai/openpilot

Can I run their software on Tesla?

Re: Electric car battery prices are going back down faster than expected (2023)

#57

Post by [deleted] »

jjtheblunt wrote: post #45
hefferbub wrote: post #16

I know most people don’t believe this, but it is likely that electric cars have a good chance of becoming far cheaper than ICE cars over the coming 5-10 years. EVs are complex, but in ways that are much more subject to economies of scale. For example, much of their value is in the software, which replicates for nearly zero marginal cost. Electric motor assembly is highly automatable and a fraction of the cost of asse…

You skipped the complex heat pump system needed to regulate battery pack temperatures (and used for cabin temps as well). BMW i4,i5,i7,iX built in mid to late 2023 use an outsourced system that widely failed in cold temps. Tesla has a famously ingenious simpler but efficient custom in house design.

[deleted]

Re: Electric car battery prices are going back down faster than expected (2023)

#58

Post by vel0city »

ssl-3 wrote: post #38
pests wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anything is brake by wire, even that Lexus has a failsafe mode that ultimately is a direct physical connection. No saving parts there yet.

One-pedal mode exists on many EVs, wherein: A person can drive around (and come to a complete stop) without ever touching the brake pedal. If that isn't brake by wire, then what is?

My car has one pedal mode. It also has a regular brake pedal that will behave like a regular hydraulic brake, because it is.

Re: Electric car battery prices are going back down faster than expected (2023)

#59

Post by hackerlight »

andrewmcwatters wrote: post #36
hackerlight wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still, the cost per unit will decrease as the number of units increases, which was the point.

You can say the same thing about any product mass produced.

Not everything has the same unit economics. The self-driving software is one part of the costs that is heavy on the fixed costs side and will therefore scale better than other costs. If you produce a million cars vs one car, the cost to make that software isn't a million times more expensive.

Re: Electric car battery prices are going back down faster than expected (2023)

#60

Post by pests »

ssl-3 wrote: post #38
pests wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anything is brake by wire, even that Lexus has a failsafe mode that ultimately is a direct physical connection. No saving parts there yet.

One-pedal mode exists on many EVs, wherein: A person can drive around (and come to a complete stop) without ever touching the brake pedal. If that isn't brake by wire, then what is?

Like the other commentor said, the brake is still connected to the brake pedal and the car mechanically assists for one-pedal mode. You can always still use the brake pedal even with any automation or assistance off.
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