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Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange
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Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange
#42This is... not a surprise. Jews have lived in Islamic countries for centuries, and had very good relations with their Islamic neighbors. In fact, there are many Jews with Arab origins living in Israel today. Unfortunately, after WWII, most Arab countries forced the Jews living there to leave (mostly to Israel). There are minor Jewish communities in some Islamic states still, but in recent decades this is very rare (t…
During the rule of al-Mutawakkil, the tenth Abbasid Caliph, numerous restrictions reinforced the second-class citizen status of dhimmīs and forced their communities into ghettos.[15] For instance, they were required to distinguish themselves from their Muslim neighbors by their dress.[16] They were not permitted to build new churches or synagogues or repair old churches according to the Pact of Umar. Is this an accur…
There are examples of widespread persecution, but this is incredibly low effort. Al-Mutawakkil (who was Uzbek and Greek, for what it's worth) was a psychopath that didn't represent the general Islamic view. The pressures he placed on Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians and even other internal Islamic sects was not a popular view. Christians were regularly teaming up with Muslims to riot against the bad leadership[0].
The idea that it was enforced is even more dubious. The decrees were racist, sure, but unlike his more insane personalized antics (like when he ordered a holy Zoroastrian tree be cut down and shipped to him so he can build his house out of it[1]) the vast majority of the Islamic world didn't agree or support any of it and it was unlikely that any of it was actually enforced. He had little support outside of the Turkic world and a North African militia group, and even that was far and few inbetween.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homs_revolts_(854%E2%80%93855)
Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
During the rule of al-Mutawakkil, the tenth Abbasid Caliph, numerous restrictions reinforced the second-class citizen status of dhimmīs and forced their communities into ghettos.[15] For instance, they were required to distinguish themselves from their Muslim neighbors by their dress.[16] They were not permitted to build new churches or synagogues or repair old churches according to the Pact of Umar. Is this an accur…
There are examples of widespread persecution, but this is incredibly low effort. Al-Mutawakkil (who was Uzbek and Greek, for what it's worth) was a psychopath that didn't represent the general Islamic view. The pressures he placed on Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians and even other internal Islamic sects was not a popular view. Christians were regularly teaming up with Muslims to riot against the bad leadership[0]. The…
I'm not sure the articles you cited are enough to prove that all of his decrees went un-enforced but I appreciate the rebuttal and added context. What we can both agree on is there was widespread persecution and the relationship was not as rosy as some would claim.
Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
When Zionism started "peaceful coexistence" was long since gone. You are combining time periods over hundreds of years. Peaceful coexistence ended around 860 (and stated getting worse in 636 with the Siege of Jerusalem), while modern Zionism didn't start till 1840's - around 1,000 years later. Possibly prompted by the Arab massacres in 1834: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1834_looting_of_Safed People sometimes talk ab…
Zionism was prompted by what happened in Europe not in the Middle East. Literally 5 minutes of Googling will help you out here.
"please, educate yourself" crowd, eh?
Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
When Zionism started "peaceful coexistence" was long since gone. You are combining time periods over hundreds of years. Peaceful coexistence ended around 860 (and stated getting worse in 636 with the Siege of Jerusalem), while modern Zionism didn't start till 1840's - around 1,000 years later. Possibly prompted by the Arab massacres in 1834: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1834_looting_of_Safed People sometimes talk ab…
Zionism was prompted by what happened in Europe not in the Middle East. Literally 5 minutes of Googling will help you out here.
That's not really accurate. In relatively modern times:
"The official beginning of the construction of the New Yishuv in Palestine is usually dated ... 1882, .... Jewish immigration to Palestine started in earnest. Most immigrants came from the Russian Empire"
Russia is not in Europe.
Going further back Zionism got a strong boost when Rome was the center of power in Europe. This was around 1,700 years before Islam even existed.
And at the actual start of Zionism, the Celts and Carthaginians were important.
Zionism is ancient and it did not start as a result of the Holocaust. It predates virtually all other cultures.
Your "5 minutes of Googling" was a failure. Maybe spend a bit longer next time.
Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange
#46Earlier quoted context omitted.
When Zionism started "peaceful coexistence" was long since gone. You are combining time periods over hundreds of years. Peaceful coexistence ended around 860 (and stated getting worse in 636 with the Siege of Jerusalem), while modern Zionism didn't start till 1840's - around 1,000 years later. Possibly prompted by the Arab massacres in 1834: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1834_looting_of_Safed People sometimes talk ab…
What happened in 636, who was expelled?
Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange
#47[flagged]
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Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange
#48This is... not a surprise. Jews have lived in Islamic countries for centuries, and had very good relations with their Islamic neighbors. In fact, there are many Jews with Arab origins living in Israel today. Unfortunately, after WWII, most Arab countries forced the Jews living there to leave (mostly to Israel). There are minor Jewish communities in some Islamic states still, but in recent decades this is very rare (t…
Describing Arabs in Israel as first-class citizens is a bit starry-eyed, although they're certainly better off than their second-class non-citizen cousins across the Green Line though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel#Racism_agains...
Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange
#49This is... not a surprise. Jews have lived in Islamic countries for centuries, and had very good relations with their Islamic neighbors. In fact, there are many Jews with Arab origins living in Israel today. Unfortunately, after WWII, most Arab countries forced the Jews living there to leave (mostly to Israel). There are minor Jewish communities in some Islamic states still, but in recent decades this is very rare (t…
The fact that Israel carried out an intimidation campaign against Iraqi Jews to force them to immigrate is pretty much a mainstream historical discourse.[1]
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1950%E2%80%931951_Baghdad_bomb...
Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange
#50This is... not a surprise. Jews have lived in Islamic countries for centuries, and had very good relations with their Islamic neighbors. In fact, there are many Jews with Arab origins living in Israel today. Unfortunately, after WWII, most Arab countries forced the Jews living there to leave (mostly to Israel). There are minor Jewish communities in some Islamic states still, but in recent decades this is very rare (t…
And I thought that enforcement is a direct retribution because of a certain nation being created in 1948. The relation certainly plunges downhill after that.