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People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

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Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#321

Post by rufus_foreman »

jjav wrote: post #320
rufus_foreman wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The norm for most people used to be to work for the same company most of their career (if not all of it) and retire from there with a pension Stats on that? That absolutely was not the norm. Again, most companies did not exist long enough for someone to work at one for their entire career. Median job tenure 40 years ago was around 4 years (BLS). A minority of private workers were covered by pensions at the highest…

> Work somewhere ten years and then decide you hate it? Either work there another 20 years or quit and lose your pension. That's not usually how it worked. > I have a pension from the 1990's. Worked there 7 years. I'll get around $150 a month when I retire As you yourself note. You didn't lose your pension by leaving after 7 years, you still get it. Sure it's minimal because you only worked there 7 years instead of 4…

>> you still get it

Different plans had different limits. Mine was 7 years, I stayed just long enough to get it. If I had left a few months earlier, would have lost it. Pensions suck.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#322

Post by gizmo »

geodel wrote: post #296
gizmo wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is driving to a costco, parking on a giant parking lot, walking through a massive store, loading up a cart, walking the the cart to your car/truck, unloading everything, returning the cart, and then driving home at all efficient? People do giant shopping trips exactly because the whole process is so cumbersome. The US has the longest commutes of any country in the world because of urban sprawl and zoning. Car-fre…

> The US has the longest commutes of any country in the world I lived in Mumbai starting 7:30 in morning I reach office by 10AM after changing buses and trains. Leave office at 6:30 -7 in evening and hit home by ~10 pm. And even those days I worked in IT so not exactly among poor who have to live far away. Claiming US commute being longest is just ignoring how billions outside North America/Europe lives.

It turns out you're right. Thank you for the correction.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#323

Post by earthling8118 »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #152
bko wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any children? I can't imagine car free city is good when you have two or more young children. For one, groceries are a problem as you likely need to stock more food to cook. Sure you can go to the store every other day but that takes a lot of time and is more expensive. Plus you are on a lot tighter schedule. Most people with kids race home to pick up children and don't want to stop by the store and schle…

I have children. 12 and 8, but we were also in Taiwan once earlier when they were 5 and 1. It's very easy to get around. The MRT stations are nothing like the ones in the US. Bathrooms are incredibly well kept and clean at every station. If anything, I feel like it's easier than pulling strollers in and out of a trunk. That said, the sidewalks are very questionable in many parts of the city once you are off of the ma…

I still think it has to be more efficient to eat out and let economies of scale take over than for each of us to cook. I even say this as an avid home cook. It's incredible that in the US it costs orders of magnitudes more to have an efficient machine of humans and logistics produce the food

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#324

Post by earthling8118 »

apexalpha wrote: post #142

These (American) articles on urbanism and what not always make it seems much more insane than it is. I live in the Netherlands, a country usually lauded for it's bicycles and public transport and what not. And let me tell you: We still drive cars. All the time. Even in Amsterdam, our biggest city, 4/10 families still owns their personal car. In the Netherlands as a whole it's 9.5/10 or so. It's about THE MIX of optio…

That's still a completely different reality than the US. Many people in my neighborhood have more than 1 vehicle per person. That's a far cry from less than half of families having a single car.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#325

Post by osigurdson »

scotty79 wrote: post #105
osigurdson wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did people buy cars if they didn't need them?

Status symbol, larger shopping (cargo bikes weren't ever a thing due to lack of bike paths), vacation, business.

Everything other than status symbol seems legitimate

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#326

Post by seoulmetro »

kijin wrote: post #95
ecshafer wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way Taiwan, Hong Kong, Japan, and South Korea fund trains is a big difference with the US (though ironically is similar to how the US used to fund trains in the 1800s). The companies (usually in some kind of private-public partnership from my understanding) who build and run the trains in East Asia typically get land around the train stop to develop into malls, shops, apartments, etc. These sales and rents then f…

A strange thing about South Korea is that even the most expensive condos in Gangnam derive a significant part of their value from being close to a subway station ( yeoksekwon ). The millionaires who live there are riding the subway right beside the pleebs! No wonder they want to keep the trains nice and clean.

This is incorrect.

Yes, people appreciate the subways but not in the way you just described. It's the "wealthy" that use the subway as well as a car, but the expensive condos in Gangnam are not using or caring about the subway. The subway is just a plus.

People living in the expensive parts of Gangnam(-gu) are not riding the subway. People living in the affordable parts of Gangnam(-gu) are.

In fact, if you look on a map in Gangnam, you will find the apartments at the doorsteps to subway stations are huge complexes for generic wealthy people. But the expensive apartments are as far as possible between the subway stops, but still in walking distance:

- 서초그랑자이

- 래미안 리더스원

- 서초푸르지오써밋

- 신반포 area services insanely expensive apt blocks but is just 1 lame station.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#328

Post by adrianN »

pxtail wrote: post #271
piva00 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution applicable almost everywhere with some dozens of thousands of population is multimodal. Public transportation supported by infrastructure for cycling and cars relegated to their place in a multimodal system: inconvenient for shorter/regular trips, accessible for when it's needed. Stockholm doesn't have mild weather all year long, it's not flat, and still people will use public transportation or a bike. O…

And again, as examples you provide two capital cities of two richest countries in the world - capital cities are rich, can easily afford building public infra and also population density is big enough to make public transportation almost profitable - but not everybody lives in a capital city. https://lovetransit.substack.com/p/most-profitable-public-tr...

Berlin is quite poor and it still has decent public transport and good walkability. Public transport is far from profitable in Berlin. It's entirely possible to raise a family without a having a car in Berlin.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#329

Post by seba_dos1 »

gadders wrote: post #239
dijit wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue you're having is not understanding how it can be. The lucky truth is that this is not some hypothetical situation, it's a lived reality for me and many more people in Europe. I'm 34 and I don't even have a drivers license; that's freedom. I never needed one. That said: I'm not really talking about an absolute reality (IE; no cars at all). Reducing car usage actually helps those that really need to use a car…

I live in Europe as well. I can understand not owning a car, but never learning to drive is like never learning to swim. Driving is a life skill, whether you own a car or not. Groceries are a lot more than 5% more expensive in a corner shop vs out of town supermarket.

I never owned a car, never felt the need to. I have learned to drive as a young adult, but unlike swimming, I never found that skill actually useful. If I had to drive a car today I would rather take some lessons first anyway, as there's no way I could actually drive safely otherwise. It's very easy for me to imagine much better ways to spend the money used to learn how to drive and much more useful "life skills" to acquire.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#330

Post by jraph »

AmigoCharlie wrote: post #280
jraph wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a car and I'd love my city to be car free. But some people think they need their car because they think they need to move a lot of stuff regularly, for instance between their home and their parents, and their parents don't leave in a place easily reachable without a car. This stuff can include pets, like cats. I think some of these people could do things differently, but maybe some of these people might…

"But some people think they need their car because they think they need to move a lot of stuff regularly, for instance between their home and their parents, and their parents don't leave in a place easily reachable without a car. This stuff can include pets, like cats. I think some of these people could do things differently, but maybe some of these people might genuinely have these needs" And, precisely, who the f..…

I didn't.

That some people having a car could do without is a certitude but I can't know who.

You know, when writing this paragraph, I had a friend in mind for who I think it would be hard. Especially when this friend would prefer not to have one.

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