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Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

nytimes.com

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Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#531

Post by mlrtime »

yardie wrote: post #300
6bb32646d83d wrote: post #137

Unfortunately it means it's extremely hard to live in Paris if you're middle class. If you're upper middle class/rich, you can rent/buy. If you're poor, you get a chance to get public housing. If you're middle class, too bad for you.

I'm middle class and lived in Paris. I had rich friends and poor friends. My rich friends owned flats that occupied entire floors of a building. My poor friends got whatever social housing was available. And my middle class friends rented or bought a place in the suburbs with more space. We owned, a relatively small by American standards 55sqm, 3F, flat in the city center. My middle class friends could also rent the…

No middle class family in America has a family in 600 sq feet.

You'd be hard pressed to even find this outside of a few areas in NYC.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#532

Post by robertlagrant »

bedobi wrote: post #525
robertlagrant wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is no job on this planet that isn't subsidized by taxes As in if I am a private plumber who does jobs for people, my job is subsidised by taxes?

Yes. Who do you think laid the infrastructure for people to get water and sewers in the first place?

That depends on the city. If it was originally a company town, probably the company. If it's a new build, probably the property developer. But either way, something that already exists is not subsidising the plumber's salary. The plumber is paid by the customer.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#533

Post by [deleted] »

hirsin wrote: post #457
hollerith wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, but some people here are asserting that the more urban density, the better, and neglecting to consider that if the density gets high enough, the commercial delivery vehicles are stuck in traffic most of the time or the residents of the city refrain from buying things that would enhance their lives if it weren't so expensive or tedious to move things around the city.

Which is why if you've ever lived far outside the city, you're tired of people from the city coming out to visit you to buy all the stuff they can't get in the city. Oh, no, it's the other way round, mostly. It's easier to deliver a quantity and variety of goods to a dense area than the sticks. Which is why "go shopping" is a suggestion for people going to NYC, not Tucson.

[deleted]

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#534

Post by tmnvix »

everforward wrote: post #271
smeej wrote: post #169

> The program has allowed Mr. Chaillou and his wife to raise their two boys in the city. But he knows that the future of social housing will always face at least one big challenge: “The problem is that once you get in, you never want to leave.” I think this is the reason so many in the U.S. are skeptical of/resistant to such plans. Why work your butt off for 10 years to get to a place where you can afford a nice dwel…

People also don't like it because it in effect means the government is competing against you for property using your own money. I.e. if the government buys up 10% of the posh neighborhood to add cheap housing, the number of posh units goes down 10% and you paid for the taxes to make that happen. So you're paying taxes to give someone else the thing you want, and make it harder for you to get that thing in the future.…

> the government is competing against you for property using your own money

Unless you somehow have an income source that doesn't rely on any taxpayer funded infrastructure whatsoever, it's a bit disingenuous to call it 'your own money'. As an example, if your city pays for a big new park on your block and this increases the value of your property, is that increase really yours?

The whole issue of taxation is so much more complicated than '100% of my income is mine and any tax is essentially theft'. Much better to argue about taxation in terms of fairness in my opinion. In terms of fairness, property owners do much better out of the whole equation than it might first seem as every public improvement amounts to a tax refund in the form of increased property value. The poor might get obvious refunds or entitlements, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are not equivalent.

In the above circumstance, the people with the most legitimate gripe are people paying a decent amount of income tax while owning no property and so missing out on both types of 'refund'.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#535

Post by seanmcdirmid »

vladvasiliu wrote: post #422
mpweiher wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [increase friction for cars...no improvement to public transport] Hmm...aren't you forgetting something? Last I checked, Paris had a veritable bicycling revolution. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_in_Paris Le Plan vélo de Paris (2015-2020) doubled bicycle lanes to 1000km and increased ridership (apparently already high?) by 50% or more. The current plan is to add another 180km and make Paris 100% cyclable.

Sure, if you live in the city proper. But what that doesn't mention: the bike sharing schemes are hit-and-miss. I usually commute each way a good hour before rush-hour traffic, so I have a good probability of finding a usable bike. But during rush hour? Fat chance. Oh, you're going to point out that there's a scheme helping you purchase your own bike? Indeed. What are you going to do with it, though? At home, you may…

One reason I don't get a bike here in Seattle is because bike theft is just way too common, and I have no way to secure it in my house (not enclosed garage, no space inside to keep it). It is funny, because they have better infrastructure now, but the theft problem (and lack of police/government care for the problem) means less people are actually riding bikes here.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#536

Post by seanmcdirmid »

twelve40 wrote: post #500
harimau777 wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do people deal with being sweaty at work? Do offices generally have showers?

they don't; it's just not practical. You have to be relatively fit and energetic to do it every day, have no chores like kids pickup, have extra time on your hands, the weather has to be perfect - no rain or god forbid snow. This only works for a particular segment of working people out there.

It depends on the climate. If you live in California or west coast outside of rainy seasons, there really isn't much of a problem unless you have a huge hill to climb on the way to work. Actually, that was my problem in Lausanne (3D town, I road up the hill every morning, and would be a bit sweaty, but I had my own office so I didn't care).

Riding worked for a particular phase of my life, now it doesn't, since I have a kid to take care of and the bike theft problem has gotten out of control in my locale.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#537

Post by seanmcdirmid »

Zamiel_Snawley wrote: post #528
twelve40 wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they don't; it's just not practical. You have to be relatively fit and energetic to do it every day, have no chores like kids pickup, have extra time on your hands, the weather has to be perfect - no rain or god forbid snow. This only works for a particular segment of working people out there.

The Dutch beg to differ[0]. Over a third of Dutch people cycle as their most frequent mode of transport. Over a quarter of all trips are on a bike. 49% of primary school students and 75% of secondary school students cycle to school. Cycling has been a national priority for the Dutch, like the automobile has a been a priority for much of the rest of the developed world. With e-bikes, fitness and terrain are less relev…

It helps that the Netherlands is mostly flat and has pretty good weather for it (I guess rain is kind of an issue). They also have awesome infrastructure and don't just expect cars to do the right thing (they actually design and redesign roads to make biking safe).

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#538

Post by closeparen »

bedobi wrote: post #10
bko wrote: post #4

The problem with charging below market prices for anything is that it necessarily leads to a mismatch of supply and demand. So the question is how do you allocate that supply? One way is to have hidden costs. This could range from straight up bribes, to paid consultants to fill out a lot of forms or talk to the right people, to just knowing someone Another way is a lottery which benefits a tiny percentage of people.…

I used to think like you but no longer do. A city NEEDS to have people of all ages, backgrounds, income levels etc in it to not die. Yes those people who live in that most central subsidized housing are in some ways winning a lottery ticket, and the real policy is to build a lot more housing as close to the city as possible. But Paris are doing that! AND adding new public transit etc etc. This multifaceted approach i…

Suppose you get a job offer, or your adult child has a newborn, or your aging parent's health takes a turn for the worse. Instead of being able to simply move, this instead starts a decade-scale process that has a 1% of chance of allocating you a public housing unit in the end. What does that do for dynamism?

People's intentions about when and where to move are important. A housing system that removes all individual agency from this question, abdicating everything to a government lottery/waiting list system, can meet other desiderata but is clearly losing something important.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#539

Post by seanmcdirmid »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #518
harimau777 wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do people deal with being sweaty at work? Do offices generally have showers?

Paris is mostly flat. As long as you aren't racing to work, sweat shouldn't be an issue.

Isn't La Defense on a hill? I remember the escalators going up to it and down from it, anyways.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#540

Post by tmnvix »

chaorace wrote: post #471
staringback wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We're terribly inefficient with its social spending because have politics is so adversarial and nobody is interested in doing any due diligence. And I'm sure it has nothing to do with the United States having a very unhealthy population and pays doctors the highest salaries in the world.

Chicken, meet egg.

I ordered one of each on Amazon. I'll let you know...
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