Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

501–510 of 662 posts

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#501

Post by bombcar »

mitthrowaway2 wrote: post #191
hollerith wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The higher the density, the more vehicles get in each others way. If your reply is that the vehicles are not needed because everyone can just walk: it takes more energy and more carbon emissions to walk a mile than it takes to drive a vehicle a mile -- and that's before we get to transporting things other than people. (Growing food is very energy intensive; walking burns food.)

High density is what enables mass rail transportation, which is much more efficient than personal vehicles.

Mass rail is most efficient when it's full.

https://afdc.energy.gov/conserve/public_transportation.html - a full car gets amazingly close to a average train (USA).

And this is seen in that trains are most common where they can be mostly full.

What's scary about that is how quickly busses just get outclassed - they have to be as big as their biggest loads, but they're usually empty.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#502

Post by HenriTEL »

yardie wrote: post #300
6bb32646d83d wrote: post #137

Unfortunately it means it's extremely hard to live in Paris if you're middle class. If you're upper middle class/rich, you can rent/buy. If you're poor, you get a chance to get public housing. If you're middle class, too bad for you.

I'm middle class and lived in Paris. I had rich friends and poor friends. My rich friends owned flats that occupied entire floors of a building. My poor friends got whatever social housing was available. And my middle class friends rented or bought a place in the suburbs with more space. We owned, a relatively small by American standards 55sqm, 3F, flat in the city center. My middle class friends could also rent the…

With 2 children you'll need about 65sqm. Hopefully the nursery is cheap compared to other cities -cough London- but it adds up. Basically you need to be in the upper middle class for a decent life with children in Paris.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#503

Post by AnthonyMouse »

dublinben wrote: post #499
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But as point A and point B become closer together, it takes less time to get there by car and then people do it more often. Unless traffic congestion eats the time savings, implying that there is high traffic congestion.

Cities are populated by people, not cars. As point A and point B become closer, people are less likely to drive. If your mailbox is attached to your house, you can lean out your front door to get your mail. If your mailbox is at the end of your 20 foot driveway, you take a few steps to get your mail. If you live on a farm, and your mailbox is down a several hundred yard driveway, you might hop in your side-by-side UT…

If you make something more efficient, people often use more of it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox

If things that had been a 10 minute drive become a 5 minute drive, now they're worth it when before they weren't. You go to the shop instead of waiting 2 days for Amazon. You go to the shop you like more instead of the one you like less even though the lesser one is closer, because now the difference isn't as big.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#504

Post by bombcar »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #260
amelius wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but it decreases social segregation. That alone is critical to keep a city alive. So rich people need poor/middle-class people to keep cities alive? Maybe they should start charging for that ...

Rich people need to keep encountering not-rich people, rather than just live in a rich-person bubble. They need that, whether or not they want that.

Depending on what you mean by "rich" they're already insulated entirely, no matter where they live.

It's much easier to make sure middle and upper middle class people interact with the poor and such, but once you're rich enough to hire an assistant, you're rich enough to avoid most anything you don't want to deal with.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#505

Post by brailsafe »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #164
rsynnott wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can certainly cause light issues, but I'm not sure why it would cause _congestion_?

More people in a smaller area? Congestion doesn't just refer to car traffic Edit: think about crowded grocery stores and restaurants. Think community spaces like parks and libraries being packed all the time. Think about never being able to stop and get a coffee without waiting in a long line. Congestion

This seems like a fundamentally suburban perspective, and I don't mean that to be an insult, it's just what all of my small home town family members and friends think, and it overwhelmingly and ironically relates to the real traffic congestion they actually experience coupled with the hypothetical imagined congestion they pre-emptively avoid exposure to by driving instead of getting on the train.

Not that there's _no_ foot traffic congestion or lines, but it's the same thing that happens in a case where there's only one Starbucks in a sprawling suburb or business district at lunch time.

A high density area is likewise it's own complex economy and system that seeks balance, when there's too many people in one area, you just go somewhere else or enjoy or compete with it. That's partly why Tokyo is simultaneously the most populated city on earth and one of the most quiet, clean, and least congested places I've visited.

In my sparsely populated city that sprawls, it's extremely noisy, dusty, time consuming to get around, the infrastructure is failing, and I rarely bump into anyone I know, because people are only visible at the beginning and end of their journey. Meanwhile here in Vancouver I often run into people I know multiple times per day because we're in the same spaces, or I can go somewhere else and not see anyone just like any other place.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#506

Post by mrguyorama »

itishappy wrote: post #461
mrguyorama wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans are INSANELY efficient at walking. That's why walking and running are terrible ways to lose weight.

About 2x as efficient as a Model 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_efficiency_in_transport

Yeah well I'm not exactly 4000 pounds or going 60mph hah

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#507

Post by javiramos »

harimau777 wrote: post #462
mpweiher wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [increase friction for cars...no improvement to public transport] Hmm...aren't you forgetting something? Last I checked, Paris had a veritable bicycling revolution. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_in_Paris Le Plan vélo de Paris (2015-2020) doubled bicycle lanes to 1000km and increased ridership (apparently already high?) by 50% or more. The current plan is to add another 180km and make Paris 100% cyclable.

How do people deal with being sweaty at work? Do offices generally have showers?

ebike

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#508

Post by kwhitefoot »

s_dev wrote: post #314
rTX5CMRXIfFG wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> build taller As someone who lives in an area with plenty of high-density residential buildings, I can attest that this is a perfect recipe for creating congested cities with such intense light and noise pollution.

France already has some of the most densely populated cities in the world, Paris is #32. French cities feel less congested than the likes of US cities because it has better cycling infrastructure and public transport options. High population density is not a cure for the bias car infrastructure imposes on a city. So your recipe will need to take more in to account than just density. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List…

But why are French cities so densely populated? The country is twice the size of the UK with roughly the same population.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#509

Post by robertlagrant »

bedobi wrote: post #416
robertlagrant wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But it can be rewarded by subsidised rents because people prefer to live in cities with a population of cool and arty people for the non-monetary benefits they bring to that society. Well, some people do. But everyone is paying for it, even if they'd rather save.

I mean, OK, you could say the same about literally every public expenditure? I'm passionately opposed to private automobiles and the fact that my tax money goes to subsidizing them (including stupid road upkeep etc) unfortunately I don't get to choose not to pay for that (but I can choose to live in a place like Paris where the Mayor is taking active steps to support not only private automobiles but give equal import…

If you want emergency services vehicles to be able to access and help at any location, you want roads. That's what you're paying for.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#510

Post by [deleted] »

samatman wrote: post #349
justin66 wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume by "machine guns" you mean rifles, and by "open carrying" you mean "carrying." (there's no way to carry a rifle concealed) I have no idea what "D.F." is. Another response above mentioned that American cops generally keep the long gun in the car. Since today we've got National Guardsmen with rifles in the NY subways acting as police, this conversation all feels a little tone deaf, but it's fair enough to poin…

> I assume by "machine guns" you mean rifles I mean both fully-automatic rifles and submachine guns, but sure, I never saw someone lugging around an M2 like a 1980s action character. > and by "open carrying" you mean "carrying." I mainly meant to contrast it with having one easily accessible in their squad car, actually. American police do have long rifles, although these are mostly semiauto. Since there is no way to…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN