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Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

nytimes.com

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Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#431

Post by wolverine876 »

rTX5CMRXIfFG wrote: post #106
mebazaa wrote: post #34

As a Parisian, who is generally angry at the city’s housing policy (build taller!), I find the public housing of the past few years to be a great achievement. In general, public housing sits on the outer edges of Paris, but the city has been agressive in reconverting buildings in posher neighborhoods. It doesn’t really lead to reduced rent (because no additional supply), but it decreases social segregation. That alon…

> build taller As someone who lives in an area with plenty of high-density residential buildings, I can attest that this is a perfect recipe for creating congested cities with such intense light and noise pollution.

> congested cities with such intense light and noise pollution

I'm not sure how you mean that. Obviously you know that many people love cities with lots of tall buildings, NYC being the obvious US example. Clearly you don't like them, but are you saying the busy-ness is inherently bad? If you don't like it, can you leave? Usually, that's an expensive place to live.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#432

Post by jvanderbot »

snowwrestler wrote: post #227
jvanderbot wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> instinctively repugnant To some. In very-red areas that I have relatives, they're happy to do a food drive, make donations, help pay for weddings or funerals, or show up to help repair houses. When you have 100 cousins and 10 brothers, this is a viable option. They frequent each others businesses, work on interconnected industries, and in general help out however they can. It's not instinctively repugnant to help ,…

The hidden issue here is the effort of people with means to shape their community by expelling or excluding people they don’t want to help. Then their voluntary donations etc only help those whom they want to help. Well-known examples in the U.S. include the use of legal covenants, red lining, Jim Crow laws, and sometimes blatant intimidation to shape who can own which property where. Such changes persist for decades…

> Communities don’t just happen, they are intentionally constructed.

I, personally, agree with your informative pseudo-rebuttal (it's polite and impartial so not really anti-them).

However, the philosophical difference is that

> they are intentionally constructed

is precisely the point, they might say.

I've come to realize, after spending time with them and reading "righteous mind", that the difference is so fundamental it requires a lot more power to cross divides than I have. I simply have to recognize the right and good intent in what they do, rather than denigrate it as "not enough" or "in the slightly wrong direction even if enough".

I imagine a world in which they decline to pay, and therefore to receive, benefits from wealth redistribution, and urbanites who are highly paid like ourselves subsidize other urbanites who are not. I also realize this world would have "rural" covens of uber rich, and so it will not be more just.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#433

Post by ipaddr »

ketralnis wrote: post #379
rTX5CMRXIfFG wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> build taller As someone who lives in an area with plenty of high-density residential buildings, I can attest that this is a perfect recipe for creating congested cities with such intense light and noise pollution.

As someone who lives in an area with plenty of high-density residential buildings, I can attest that I love it and I wish there were more American cities that were an option for my lifestyle.

America is filled with high rises. Where are you from?

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#434

Post by smeej »

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #213
smeej wrote: post #169

> The program has allowed Mr. Chaillou and his wife to raise their two boys in the city. But he knows that the future of social housing will always face at least one big challenge: “The problem is that once you get in, you never want to leave.” I think this is the reason so many in the U.S. are skeptical of/resistant to such plans. Why work your butt off for 10 years to get to a place where you can afford a nice dwel…

> American culture doesn't like to think about how much of "success" is down to luck Think it's more surprising how little of it is down to luck. Even working slightly harder reaps rewards quickly that outweigh the extra work. It's most just most people are not even putting in the minimum.

I think this only looks true on a local level. It's easy to see why Jimmy pulls ahead of Johnny when Jimmy's working more diligently, but they're starting from a fairly even playing field.

A lot of the big cards are just dealt to you. Your parents, your skin, your religion, your school, your intelligence, your health, the neighborhood you grow up in--these things have a huge impact on what you do or don't have to overcome once you're old enough to take responsibility for your choices, and you don't get to pick them at the start. They have an outsized impact on what you even believe to be possible, never mind what you think is normal.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#435

Post by carabiner »

rTX5CMRXIfFG wrote: post #106
mebazaa wrote: post #34

As a Parisian, who is generally angry at the city’s housing policy (build taller!), I find the public housing of the past few years to be a great achievement. In general, public housing sits on the outer edges of Paris, but the city has been agressive in reconverting buildings in posher neighborhoods. It doesn’t really lead to reduced rent (because no additional supply), but it decreases social segregation. That alon…

> build taller As someone who lives in an area with plenty of high-density residential buildings, I can attest that this is a perfect recipe for creating congested cities with such intense light and noise pollution.

Part of the draw of a city is bustling night life. You don't move to Manhattan for dark skies.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#436

Post by wolverine876 »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #164
rsynnott wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can certainly cause light issues, but I'm not sure why it would cause _congestion_?

More people in a smaller area? Congestion doesn't just refer to car traffic Edit: think about crowded grocery stores and restaurants. Think community spaces like parks and libraries being packed all the time. Think about never being able to stop and get a coffee without waiting in a long line. Congestion

> think about crowded grocery stores and restaurants. Think community spaces like parks and libraries being packed all the time. Think about never being able to stop and get a coffee without waiting in a long line. Congestion

That depends on supply and demand, not simply demand. More people attract, open and staff more shops, etc. It's easier to find a restaurant in a major city than a quiet rural town.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#437

Post by AnthonyMouse »

dublinben wrote: post #413
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suppose that you have a grid-like road network across an area of 100 square miles, where intersecting roads go north-south and east-west and roads are half a mile apart. If you want to get from one corner of the square to the adjacent one, you have to travel 10 miles. If there are a million people doing this, you have ten million vehicle miles. Now suppose you compress this many people into an area of 25 square miles…

You can't assume that the number of cars is a constant though. As point A and point B become farther apart, car usage goes up. When they become closer together, car usage scales down.

But as point A and point B become closer together, it takes less time to get there by car and then people do it more often. Unless traffic congestion eats the time savings, implying that there is high traffic congestion.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#438

Post by wolverine876 »

hollerith wrote: post #428
OkayPhysicist wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A human walking is absurdly efficient, as anyone who's ever tried to outrun a bad diet can tell you. Running or walking a mile burns ~100 extra calories relative to sitting on your couch. Unless you're putting active effort into not doing so, most diets fluctuate by far more than that.

Sure, but it is also true that food that is healthy for people is an absurdly expensive form of energy compared to gasoline.

If we make free the largest costs of gas, greenhouse gas emissions.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#439

Post by 082349872349872 »

rsynnott wrote: post #266
082349872349872 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point; please substitute the appropriate word for the service worker who doles out glasses of wine from behind a zinc counter. (or did zinc also postdate lifts?)

Zinc counters feel very much an early 20th century thing to me. Like, I'm sure they had zinc in the 19th century, but it's hard to imagine that bars were made out of it.

Apparently the bars (les zincs) did exist in the XIX, but were mostly shiny and not necessarily zinc-plated. (more that zinc, like AI now, was the cool thing then)

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc#Histoire

> L'utilisation du zinc pour le zincage du fer ... a permis l'essor de l'architecture de fer, ainsi les halles centrales de Paris, le palais de l'industrie, les nombreux théâtres et gares monumentales de chemin de fer entre 1860 et 1880.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc#Lexicographie

> Dans les années 1873 à 1876, les écrivains français consignant l'expression populaire, aussi bien Zola que Huysmans, nomment zinc la surface propre des bars anglais ou le revêtement brillant des comptoirs souvent étamés ou cuivrés, plus rarement zingués.

... which puts them, if preceding, nearly contemporaneous with elevators. (but copper bartops must have been a thing earlier?)

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#440

Post by lotsofpulp »

epolanski wrote: post #382
GardenLetter27 wrote: post #373

Public housing is terrible - why should the government steal my money (income tax) to pay to house criminals and drug dealers nearby which devalues my property and endangers my life and family? We just need a true Free Market - let people build and invest how they want, where they want. And ensure that everyone has a stake in the property they own and the area they live in.

Because as a society we progress at the pace our weakest progress. We don't say China moved ahead because the rich got richer, but because it lifted hundred of millions from poverty. And if anything, a poor social net tends to create more dangers, not less. When people have no roof, no jobs, no help, they will turn into criminals. Hell if I need to eat, or worse, I need to feed my family, I could not care less about…

>We don't say China moved ahead because the rich got richer, but because it lifted hundred of millions from poverty.

I was under the impression the poor in China moved ahead due to working, not because the Chinese government subsidized their housing or other basics. Although, the Chinese government did subsidize their ability to find and get to work via huge infrastructure projects.

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