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Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

nytimes.com

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Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#171

Post by hollerith »

rsynnott wrote: post #113
rTX5CMRXIfFG wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> build taller As someone who lives in an area with plenty of high-density residential buildings, I can attest that this is a perfect recipe for creating congested cities with such intense light and noise pollution.

It can certainly cause light issues, but I'm not sure why it would cause _congestion_?

The higher the density, the more vehicles get in each others way.

If your reply is that the vehicles are not needed because everyone can just walk: it takes more energy and more carbon emissions to walk a mile than it takes to drive a vehicle a mile -- and that's before we get to transporting things other than people. (Growing food is very energy intensive; walking burns food.)

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#172

Post by TwoFerMaggie »

rangestransform wrote: post #155
TwoFerMaggie wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having lived in an actual third world country for a couple decades, I personally can't take statements such as "xx is becoming more like a third world country" seriously. I get the sentiment behind it though. If I compare, for example, my experience living in cities in China vs cities in Europe, I would argue that the relative freedom of movement forces residents in Europe to confront the inequality in their everyday…

I don’t want to be confronted with inequality every day

(forgive me if it's sarcasm and I missed it)

Nobody wants confrontation because it's uncomfortable. But inequality like this is literally the inescapable reality migrant workers live in. Your average locals might be able to turn a blind eye to it, they can't.

Seems at least a little bit hypocritical to enjoy the life made easier by (often imported) cheap labor while not wanting to be aware of their troubles, or you know, live with them in close proximity.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#173

Post by jvanderbot »

smeej wrote: post #169

> The program has allowed Mr. Chaillou and his wife to raise their two boys in the city. But he knows that the future of social housing will always face at least one big challenge: “The problem is that once you get in, you never want to leave.” I think this is the reason so many in the U.S. are skeptical of/resistant to such plans. Why work your butt off for 10 years to get to a place where you can afford a nice dwel…

> instinctively repugnant

To some.

In very-red areas that I have relatives, they're happy to do a food drive, make donations, help pay for weddings or funerals, or show up to help repair houses. When you have 100 cousins and 10 brothers, this is a viable option.

They frequent each others businesses, work on interconnected industries, and in general help out however they can.

It's not instinctively repugnant to help, or to give, it's instinctively repugnant to give outside their community. That seems a more fundamental problem with tax-rich/give-poor mentality. These folks make tons of charitable donations in money, in kind, and in time, but oppose wealth redistribution.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#174

Post by bluefirebrand »

Ragnarork wrote: post #44
patwolf wrote: post #14

> Every Thursday, Jacques Baudrier, the Paris city councilor in charge of housing, scrolls through the list of properties being exchanged by sellers and buyers on the private market. With some exceptions, the city has the legal right to pre-empt the sale of a building, buy the property and convert it to public housing. What are the mechanics of how this works? If I agree to buy a property for a million dollars, does…

Basically, if your property is eligible for preemption, you have to declare that you intend to sell (at the price you wish) to the city, which can then tell you that - they don't intend to buy, in which case you can proceed with the sale - they buy at the price you've set - they make a counter-offer, which you have the right to refuse but then you also renounce to sell If there's a dispute on the price (especially in…

I tend to lean lefty, but this scheme makes me understand why libertarians want less government

How much my home is worth should not be capped by whatever government thinks. That's bs

If government is counter offering all of my neighbors and they are accepting it, then I am screwed. I either accept the government counter offer or I go to tribunal who will cite all of the government's recent purchases from my neighbors to set the price at something very close to that anyways

And if I don't like it, I'm legally not allowed to sell?

Ridiculous

Even if you don't think houses should be infinitely appreciating assets, which I don't, your asset worth should still be as valuable as someone is willing to pay for them, not controlled by a cartel style government

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#175

Post by malermeister »

brainwad wrote: post #20
bugglebeetle wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet Vienna is one of the most beautiful, livable cities in the world, with its masses of public housing, while major U.S. cities have homelessness crises and TV shows about house flipping for profit. Perhaps we should stop debating things based on the hokum of Econ 101 textbooks and look at what in the real world has actually worked (e.g. abolishing most forms of zoning, massive investments in public housing, rob…

Vienna has had the luxury of having had relatively little demand for housing for over a century. The population peaked in WWI and still hasn't recovered (it was 2.24m in 1916, 2.00m in 2023).

Vienna actually had a terrible housing crisis before the Austromarxists of Red Vienna built housing en masse. See this article for example: https://citymonitor.ai/environment/housing/red-vienna-how-au...

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#176

Post by jajko »

6bb32646d83d wrote: post #137

Unfortunately it means it's extremely hard to live in Paris if you're middle class. If you're upper middle class/rich, you can rent/buy. If you're poor, you get a chance to get public housing. If you're middle class, too bad for you.

You can put this on whole France, this is general approach at least for past few decades.

Ultra rich easily bypass all those populist moves to 'tax rich', poor have sometimes unreasonable protections (ie you can just stop paying rent, give big FU to the owner, change locks and maybe, theoretically after 6 months of courts he can evict you on his costs, while you trash the place into nothing without any recourse - some real cases of friends living there).

Its outright the worst possible place in whole Europe to be rich (again, those ultra rich are off the quite corrupt system, just check all (super)yachts in whole Cote d'Azur), government goes after you like a rabid dog, inheritance tax is easily 40%. All the bankers I've talked to (not professionally, I am just a normal guy) advised against any investment in that country before you cross ultra high net worth line, then all this disappears.

Yet absolutely nobody strikes against this corruption and unfairness, middle class just buckles up and continues, at least whats left of it.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#177

Post by estebank »

bertjk wrote: post #93
baud147258 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What are the mechanics of how this works? If I agree to buy a property for a million dollars, does the city get a chance to match that price? there's a French wiki page on this: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_de_pr%C3%A9emption_urbai... But basically, yes, the city has 2 months to match the price. The city can also offer a lower price, which can be refused (so no sale at all) or can be argued in front of a spe…

So does this mean that every sale of any building can take at least two months?

I've seen the process to purchase a place in both France and California. The former can take the significant part of a year, the later a matter of days.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#178

Post by asimovfan »

mebazaa wrote: post #34

As a Parisian, who is generally angry at the city’s housing policy (build taller!), I find the public housing of the past few years to be a great achievement. In general, public housing sits on the outer edges of Paris, but the city has been agressive in reconverting buildings in posher neighborhoods. It doesn’t really lead to reduced rent (because no additional supply), but it decreases social segregation. That alon…

Building taller means people see the sky less. In my home city that is the case and you definitely dont want that. Where ive been living the last few years, no building is above 3 stories and its wonderful.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#179

Post by malermeister »

ecshafer wrote: post #24
bugglebeetle wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet Vienna is one of the most beautiful, livable cities in the world, with its masses of public housing, while major U.S. cities have homelessness crises and TV shows about house flipping for profit. Perhaps we should stop debating things based on the hokum of Econ 101 textbooks and look at what in the real world has actually worked (e.g. abolishing most forms of zoning, massive investments in public housing, rob…

The US also has a per capita GDP 50% higher than Austria ($52,131 vs $76,399). At $52,131 a year per capita GDP, Austria would be neatly in second to last place as the poorest state in the Union, as it would beat Mississippi at $47,190 but be beaten by West Virginia at $53,852. So perhaps the US policy is doing something correctly.

Only an American could make this argument. Vienna tops global comparisons for quality of life all the time. Life expectancy is higher in Austria, as are safety, education standards and all other meaningful indicators.

Who cares about some silly numbers on a bank account? We live good lives.

Re: Paris preserves its mixed society by pouring billions into public housing

#180

Post by simonw »

hollerith wrote: post #171
rsynnott wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can certainly cause light issues, but I'm not sure why it would cause _congestion_?

The higher the density, the more vehicles get in each others way. If your reply is that the vehicles are not needed because everyone can just walk: it takes more energy and more carbon emissions to walk a mile than it takes to drive a vehicle a mile -- and that's before we get to transporting things other than people. (Growing food is very energy intensive; walking burns food.)

"it takes more energy and more carbon emissions to walk a mile than it takes to drive a vehicle a mile"

I've never heard that before, can you expand on that?

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