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Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

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Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#21

Post by mutatio »

lots2learn wrote: post #16
myth_drannon wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I don't think you understand the word colonizer. The Muslims conquered and lived among the people. They created a civilization which non-Muslim minorities were a part of. This is very different from European colonialism that extracted resources from the lands and people they conquered for the exclusive benefit of the Empire.

They were colonizers and practiced genocide. It's a great source of pride that Jews were banished from the Arab peninsula (or forcefully converted).

Other branches of Islamic history such as the Ottomams were also colonisers.

Don't forget Muhammad himself was a warlord.

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#22

Post by [deleted] »

gadilif wrote: post #2

This is... not a surprise. Jews have lived in Islamic countries for centuries, and had very good relations with their Islamic neighbors. In fact, there are many Jews with Arab origins living in Israel today. Unfortunately, after WWII, most Arab countries forced the Jews living there to leave (mostly to Israel). There are minor Jewish communities in some Islamic states still, but in recent decades this is very rare (t…

[deleted]

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#23

Post by [deleted] »

teejays wrote: post #15
gadilif wrote: post #2

This is... not a surprise. Jews have lived in Islamic countries for centuries, and had very good relations with their Islamic neighbors. In fact, there are many Jews with Arab origins living in Israel today. Unfortunately, after WWII, most Arab countries forced the Jews living there to leave (mostly to Israel). There are minor Jewish communities in some Islamic states still, but in recent decades this is very rare (t…

[flagged]

[deleted]

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#24

Post by myth_drannon »

hersko wrote: post #17
wslh wrote: post #7

Probably most people ignore the good relationship between Jews and Arabs because it is not taught or communicated, sadly, often. They participated in math, medicine, astronomy, and philosophy.

From what i understand, at the time this thing was made, Islamic society was more advanced and way better for jews than Christian Europe.

Right, while the Christian Europe was amidst a Dark Ages and was torturing and burning Jews and others, Islam was in its Golden Age period. Too bad it was short and Mongol hordes ended it, leaving a significant mark on the Islamic culture.

Just realized we are witnessing at the moment two wars (there are more, but these two just get significant news coverage) by cultures who were scarred by Mongols - Russia and Islamic Empire

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#25

Post by user982 »

teejays wrote: post #15
gadilif wrote: post #2

This is... not a surprise. Jews have lived in Islamic countries for centuries, and had very good relations with their Islamic neighbors. In fact, there are many Jews with Arab origins living in Israel today. Unfortunately, after WWII, most Arab countries forced the Jews living there to leave (mostly to Israel). There are minor Jewish communities in some Islamic states still, but in recent decades this is very rare (t…

[flagged]

This was Jerusalem in 1896: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vaIK8wlAl0

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#26

Post by cess11 »

hersko wrote: post #17
wslh wrote: post #7

Probably most people ignore the good relationship between Jews and Arabs because it is not taught or communicated, sadly, often. They participated in math, medicine, astronomy, and philosophy.

From what i understand, at the time this thing was made, Islamic society was more advanced and way better for jews than Christian Europe.

Yes. And zionism as a global political force is in large part, possibly mainly, funded and promoted by christian zionists, and not by jews.

Comment above implies a dichotomy between arab and jew which is wildly ahistorical.

To an extent the migration of jews to Israel from arab countries post-WWII was done by Israel, infamously the 'magic carpet' from Yemen for example.

As an aside, the urge among zionists to claim that muslims are the worst, OG colonizers is probably related to zionism being an explicitly colonial project, as stated by pretty much every influential early zionist. Cecil Rhodes was begged to help out due to his experience in this area, and the intimate relation between apartheid South Africa and Israel was in part made possible due to this similarity.

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#27

Post by hdlothia »

gadilif wrote: post #2

This is... not a surprise. Jews have lived in Islamic countries for centuries, and had very good relations with their Islamic neighbors. In fact, there are many Jews with Arab origins living in Israel today. Unfortunately, after WWII, most Arab countries forced the Jews living there to leave (mostly to Israel). There are minor Jewish communities in some Islamic states still, but in recent decades this is very rare (t…

During the rule of al-Mutawakkil, the tenth Abbasid Caliph, numerous restrictions reinforced the second-class citizen status of dhimmīs and forced their communities into ghettos.[15] For instance, they were required to distinguish themselves from their Muslim neighbors by their dress.[16] They were not permitted to build new churches or synagogues or repair old churches according to the Pact of Umar.

Is this an accurate portrayal of the good relations you describe or an exception? It's hard to find unbiased accounts of what Jewish-Islamic relations were like pre-israel, especially since both sides have an agenda to push.

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#28

Post by msteffen »

gadilif wrote: post #2

This is... not a surprise. Jews have lived in Islamic countries for centuries, and had very good relations with their Islamic neighbors. In fact, there are many Jews with Arab origins living in Israel today. Unfortunately, after WWII, most Arab countries forced the Jews living there to leave (mostly to Israel). There are minor Jewish communities in some Islamic states still, but in recent decades this is very rare (t…

I do think that your comment almost understates the relationship: in 1917, an incredible 40% of Baghdad's population was Jewish.

The nature of historical Jewish-Islamic relations is obviously a matter of great political contention (especially now). It varied depending on the politics of the time and place—sometimes rich and peaceful (and indeed better than Europe) and sometimes tragic and violent—but for anyone casually curious, there is a dedicated Wikipedia article that I think is pretty good: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_under_Musl...

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#29

Post by ars »

teejays wrote: post #15
gadilif wrote: post #2

This is... not a surprise. Jews have lived in Islamic countries for centuries, and had very good relations with their Islamic neighbors. In fact, there are many Jews with Arab origins living in Israel today. Unfortunately, after WWII, most Arab countries forced the Jews living there to leave (mostly to Israel). There are minor Jewish communities in some Islamic states still, but in recent decades this is very rare (t…

[flagged]

When Zionism started "peaceful coexistence" was long since gone.

You are combining time periods over hundreds of years. Peaceful coexistence ended around 860 (and stated getting worse in 636 with the Siege of Jerusalem), while modern Zionism didn't start till 1840's - around 1,000 years later.

Possibly prompted by the Arab massacres in 1834: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1834_looting_of_Safed

People sometimes talk about how Israel was mostly inhabited by Arabs before Israel was founded, but they neglect to inform that this was because of the numerous massacres against Jews who had been living there for thousands of years.

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#30

Post by TacticalCoder »

lots2learn wrote: post #16
myth_drannon wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I don't think you understand the word colonizer. The Muslims conquered and lived among the people. They created a civilization which non-Muslim minorities were a part of. This is very different from European colonialism that extracted resources from the lands and people they conquered for the exclusive benefit of the Empire.

[flagged]
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