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Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

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Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#11

Post by pgeorgi »

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #8
wslh wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you please expand what is wrong with the comments upper in the thread? I see the expression I think you referenced logically right: Jews lived for thousand years even if there were other religions there, Pagans (not Christians) included. That is any other faiths.

The first one's fine: no objections there. The second comment is just misleading in so many ways it's hard to pick one. Dividing the world into "Pagan countries" and "Christian countries" is both inaccurate (Jews weren't considered pagans) and overly-simplistic (state religions aren't a solid, fixed thing, especially over large areas before modern communication). While the Arab conquests were significant, not every M…

> Dividing the world into "Pagan countries" and "Christian countries" is both inaccurate

That's not what the post said. Just that, before Islam was even a thing, those countries that Jews lived in which these days are considered "Muslim countries" were broadly "pagan" and/or "christian", depending on time and location.

As for your assertion of no christian countries thousands of years ago, where you state yourself "Armenia converting about 1715-ish years ago": That's thousands of years (as in: more than 1000)

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#12

Post by wizzwizz4 »

pgeorgi wrote: post #11
wizzwizz4 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first one's fine: no objections there. The second comment is just misleading in so many ways it's hard to pick one. Dividing the world into "Pagan countries" and "Christian countries" is both inaccurate (Jews weren't considered pagans) and overly-simplistic (state religions aren't a solid, fixed thing, especially over large areas before modern communication). While the Arab conquests were significant, not every M…

> Dividing the world into "Pagan countries" and "Christian countries" is both inaccurate That's not what the post said. Just that, before Islam was even a thing, those countries that Jews lived in which these days are considered "Muslim countries" were broadly "pagan" and/or "christian", depending on time and location. As for your assertion of no christian countries thousands of years ago, where you state yourself "A…

> those countries that Jews lived in which these days are considered "Muslim countries"

Is irrelevant, since we're talking about the 11th century. (I can't find a good 11th-century map to point at, but the article describes enough to give the impression of how different it was back then.)

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#13

Post by elevaet »

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #8
wslh wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you please expand what is wrong with the comments upper in the thread? I see the expression I think you referenced logically right: Jews lived for thousand years even if there were other religions there, Pagans (not Christians) included. That is any other faiths.

The first one's fine: no objections there. The second comment is just misleading in so many ways it's hard to pick one. Dividing the world into "Pagan countries" and "Christian countries" is both inaccurate (Jews weren't considered pagans) and overly-simplistic (state religions aren't a solid, fixed thing, especially over large areas before modern communication). While the Arab conquests were significant, not every M…

> (The Mongol Empire didn't manage to eliminate the practice of Islam in the areas under its control, despite ritual washing being punishable by summary execution, so it's plausible that Islam is just that persuasive.)

When/where did the Mongol empire ever try to eliminate the practice if Islam? They definitely shed a lot of blood and destruction in the Muslim world, but afaik the point was never to eliminate Islam, but just territorial conquest. The Mongols were famously tolerant of diverse religions within their borders. Many Mongol rulers even converted to Islam.

Of course, history is vast and multifaceted, so you might be talking about a different time/place than I am.

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#14

Post by pgeorgi »

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #12
pgeorgi wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Dividing the world into "Pagan countries" and "Christian countries" is both inaccurate That's not what the post said. Just that, before Islam was even a thing, those countries that Jews lived in which these days are considered "Muslim countries" were broadly "pagan" and/or "christian", depending on time and location. As for your assertion of no christian countries thousands of years ago, where you state yourself "A…

> those countries that Jews lived in which these days are considered "Muslim countries" Is irrelevant, since we're talking about the 11th century. (I can't find a good 11th-century map to point at, but the article describes enough to give the impression of how different it was back then.)

Three posts above the goal post stood at "inaccurate" and "overly-simplistic," now we're at irrelevant. Okay.

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#15

Post by teejays »

gadilif wrote: post #2

This is... not a surprise. Jews have lived in Islamic countries for centuries, and had very good relations with their Islamic neighbors. In fact, there are many Jews with Arab origins living in Israel today. Unfortunately, after WWII, most Arab countries forced the Jews living there to leave (mostly to Israel). There are minor Jewish communities in some Islamic states still, but in recent decades this is very rare (t…

[flagged]

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#16

Post by lots2learn »

myth_drannon wrote: post #3
gadilif wrote: post #2

This is... not a surprise. Jews have lived in Islamic countries for centuries, and had very good relations with their Islamic neighbors. In fact, there are many Jews with Arab origins living in Israel today. Unfortunately, after WWII, most Arab countries forced the Jews living there to leave (mostly to Israel). There are minor Jewish communities in some Islamic states still, but in recent decades this is very rare (t…

[flagged]

I don't think you understand the word colonizer. The Muslims conquered and lived among the people. They created a civilization which non-Muslim minorities were a part of. This is very different from European colonialism that extracted resources from the lands and people they conquered for the exclusive benefit of the Empire.

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#17

Post by hersko »

wslh wrote: post #7

Probably most people ignore the good relationship between Jews and Arabs because it is not taught or communicated, sadly, often. They participated in math, medicine, astronomy, and philosophy.

From what i understand, at the time this thing was made, Islamic society was more advanced and way better for jews than Christian Europe.

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#18

Post by wslh »

teejays wrote: post #15
gadilif wrote: post #2

This is... not a surprise. Jews have lived in Islamic countries for centuries, and had very good relations with their Islamic neighbors. In fact, there are many Jews with Arab origins living in Israel today. Unfortunately, after WWII, most Arab countries forced the Jews living there to leave (mostly to Israel). There are minor Jewish communities in some Islamic states still, but in recent decades this is very rare (t…

[flagged]

I think another way to see it is that Zionism is the perfect excuse for struggle.

There are 16m of Jews in a world of 8b people. And, the world was silent while half of the Jewish population was been literally exterminated. Even US was closed to Jews refugees.

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#19

Post by nolongerthere »

teejays wrote: post #15
gadilif wrote: post #2

This is... not a surprise. Jews have lived in Islamic countries for centuries, and had very good relations with their Islamic neighbors. In fact, there are many Jews with Arab origins living in Israel today. Unfortunately, after WWII, most Arab countries forced the Jews living there to leave (mostly to Israel). There are minor Jewish communities in some Islamic states still, but in recent decades this is very rare (t…

[flagged]

[flagged]

Re: Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

#20

Post by wizzwizz4 »

elevaet wrote: post #13
wizzwizz4 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first one's fine: no objections there. The second comment is just misleading in so many ways it's hard to pick one. Dividing the world into "Pagan countries" and "Christian countries" is both inaccurate (Jews weren't considered pagans) and overly-simplistic (state religions aren't a solid, fixed thing, especially over large areas before modern communication). While the Arab conquests were significant, not every M…

> (The Mongol Empire didn't manage to eliminate the practice of Islam in the areas under its control, despite ritual washing being punishable by summary execution, so it's plausible that Islam is just that persuasive.) When/where did the Mongol empire ever try to eliminate the practice if Islam? They definitely shed a lot of blood and destruction in the Muslim world, but afaik the point was never to eliminate Islam,…

I don't know they ever did try to eliminate Islam, but the particular issue of washing was a conflict between their religious practices. I learned this from https://tube.kockatoo.org/w/hfsnrYC2aGbr1HEehhwrqZ?start=6m3... by Premodernist, which quotes and discusses 長春真人西遊記:

> Now the subtext here, which Li doesn't come right out and say, but is kinda understood for a contemporary: when the Mongols forbade people from washing in the rivers, that means that if they caught you going into the river to wash, they would kill you on the spot; because that was a taboo in the Mongol religious system. Now that was a problem if you were a Muslim who had come under Mongol rule, because Muslims of course do ritual washings before prayers, and in central Asia they would very often just go down to the local stream or river to do the washings. But if a Mongol saw them doing that, they would go over there and strike them down and kill them. And there are accounts – not in this account, but there are accounts in other historical works from the period, particularly from Muslim writers – that talk about, it was not uncommon for Muslims to be killed by Mongols in this way.

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