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Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

nytimes.com

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Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#221

Post by II2II »

up2isomorphism wrote: post #152
rhelz wrote: post #132

WRT to lack of a skilled workforce, here is an interesting anecdote. I remember back in the late 90's, Intel had to fire most line workers in their FABS, and hire people with Ph.D.'s in solid-state physics. I actually knew one of these people who were fired: She was our housecleaner. And--like the supper-smart garbage man of the Dilbert Cartoons, she was very smart. Smarter than me. I know because she helped me solve…

Maybe too much money is exactly the problem? I rarely see people tackling hard problem for money, because it is not an efficient way of making money.

While you could convince me that too much money would attract the wrong type of people, you would be hard pressed to find more competent people by offering less money. (I'm not dismissing that there are other motivations involved, just the ability to grow a talent pool by offering less.)

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#222

Post by cogman10 »

curiousllama wrote: post #165
eitally wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a silly anecdote and I have a hard time believing chip fab line workers are too much different from those in other types of high-tech (where I spent 15 years working on test automation & quality systems). Some smart folks, for sure, but almost zero roles required even actual engineering background. A lot of management had strong technical education, but the vast majority of line workers are just following simp…

Having seen a few 'high tech' places myself: there's high tech, and then there's _high tech_. Assembling a motherboard is to semiconductor fabs as flying a toy drone is to landing a Boeing 747. One you can learn in an afternoon; the other takes years to learn.

> Assembling a motherboard is to semiconductor fabs as flying a toy drone is to landing a Boeing 747.

I disagree. I live next to a fab and have coworkers that have worked the fabs.

Humans in fabs are taken out of the loop as much as possible. That's because when dealing with nanoscale structures, human error is simply too common.

One of my coworkers worked at the fab during a period where they had humans running the forklift that moved the wafers from one stage to the next. That was cut out because the tiny bumps caused by a human operating the controls caused imperfections in the chips that decreased yield (the metric that matters most for a fab). They ultimately removed that work and job and replaced it with robots to carefully move the wafers.

What's complex about a fab ends up being not the frontline work, but rather the layer or 2 in the back (like designing the lithography filter for a given chip). That stuff happen outside the actual plant.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#223

Post by 1-6 »

rhelz wrote: post #132

WRT to lack of a skilled workforce, here is an interesting anecdote. I remember back in the late 90's, Intel had to fire most line workers in their FABS, and hire people with Ph.D.'s in solid-state physics. I actually knew one of these people who were fired: She was our housecleaner. And--like the supper-smart garbage man of the Dilbert Cartoons, she was very smart. Smarter than me. I know because she helped me solve…

Could her health problem stem from the fact that she worked at the chip fab? Those places are notorious for using chemicals that are harmful to humans.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#224

Post by gamepsys »

lenerdenator wrote: post #154
randerson wrote: post #115

Intel could have funded this themselves many times over if they'd reinvested their profits instead of paying huge buybacks and dividends.

The goal of a corporation is to generate value for shareholders, and we don't give any incentives for them to do otherwise.

Corporations should only return cash to investors (via dividend or stock buyback) if they do not have a high yield way to invest the money internally. A large stock buyback is the corporation admitting they do not have good uses for the cash. If Intel would take these grants, tax credits, and low interest loans and turn around and increase their dividend or do a large stock buyback then this would be a simple wealth transfer from the US to Intel stock owners. Even without this cash flow, these large grants feels like this unfairly benefits Intel shareholders at the expense of US Tax payers.

Intel's last stock buyback was in Q1 2021, which was $2.4B. There were $14B in buybacks in 2020 [0].

[0] https://www.intc.com/stock-info/dividends-and-buybacks

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#225

Post by 0xEF »

eitally wrote: post #156
rhelz wrote: post #132

WRT to lack of a skilled workforce, here is an interesting anecdote. I remember back in the late 90's, Intel had to fire most line workers in their FABS, and hire people with Ph.D.'s in solid-state physics. I actually knew one of these people who were fired: She was our housecleaner. And--like the supper-smart garbage man of the Dilbert Cartoons, she was very smart. Smarter than me. I know because she helped me solve…

That's a silly anecdote and I have a hard time believing chip fab line workers are too much different from those in other types of high-tech (where I spent 15 years working on test automation & quality systems). Some smart folks, for sure, but almost zero roles required even actual engineering background. A lot of management had strong technical education, but the vast majority of line workers are just following simp…

Just in case they are paying attention, I would love to relocate and go to work for Intel. Following simple instructions sounds terrific, to me. Where do I send my resume?

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#226

Post by nonethewiser »

eitally wrote: post #156
rhelz wrote: post #132

WRT to lack of a skilled workforce, here is an interesting anecdote. I remember back in the late 90's, Intel had to fire most line workers in their FABS, and hire people with Ph.D.'s in solid-state physics. I actually knew one of these people who were fired: She was our housecleaner. And--like the supper-smart garbage man of the Dilbert Cartoons, she was very smart. Smarter than me. I know because she helped me solve…

That's a silly anecdote and I have a hard time believing chip fab line workers are too much different from those in other types of high-tech (where I spent 15 years working on test automation & quality systems). Some smart folks, for sure, but almost zero roles required even actual engineering background. A lot of management had strong technical education, but the vast majority of line workers are just following simp…

I think people are also underestimating the intelligence of people in the once very large manufacturing workforce.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#227

Post by nonethewiser »

curiousllama wrote: post #165
eitally wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a silly anecdote and I have a hard time believing chip fab line workers are too much different from those in other types of high-tech (where I spent 15 years working on test automation & quality systems). Some smart folks, for sure, but almost zero roles required even actual engineering background. A lot of management had strong technical education, but the vast majority of line workers are just following simp…

Having seen a few 'high tech' places myself: there's high tech, and then there's _high tech_. Assembling a motherboard is to semiconductor fabs as flying a toy drone is to landing a Boeing 747. One you can learn in an afternoon; the other takes years to learn.

I think you underestimate the amount of people with high school education doing very precise, skilled work right now. Do you think skilled machines tend to have PHds or even bachelors?

Im not saying its as simple as CNC. I am saying that I doubt you need an IQ of 130 or a PHD. Start investing in the people whose labor were undercut. In fact a skilled machinist or technician seems like a much closer match (in terms of skill and willingness to do the job) than some with an electrical engineering PHD or something.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#228

Post by mfer »

rhelz wrote: post #132

WRT to lack of a skilled workforce, here is an interesting anecdote. I remember back in the late 90's, Intel had to fire most line workers in their FABS, and hire people with Ph.D.'s in solid-state physics. I actually knew one of these people who were fired: She was our housecleaner. And--like the supper-smart garbage man of the Dilbert Cartoons, she was very smart. Smarter than me. I know because she helped me solve…

This award isn't about innovation, the best way to do things, or job requirements.

This about supply chain security and national defense. So many of our components are made overseas and under governments who are not close allies. This is in order to operate things in our country.

When you have the FABs in the US and under US control you can handle international foreign policy and the security of the nation differently.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#229

Post by znpy »

eitally wrote: post #156
rhelz wrote: post #132

WRT to lack of a skilled workforce, here is an interesting anecdote. I remember back in the late 90's, Intel had to fire most line workers in their FABS, and hire people with Ph.D.'s in solid-state physics. I actually knew one of these people who were fired: She was our housecleaner. And--like the supper-smart garbage man of the Dilbert Cartoons, she was very smart. Smarter than me. I know because she helped me solve…

That's a silly anecdote and I have a hard time believing chip fab line workers are too much different from those in other types of high-tech (where I spent 15 years working on test automation & quality systems). Some smart folks, for sure, but almost zero roles required even actual engineering background. A lot of management had strong technical education, but the vast majority of line workers are just following simp…

> but almost zero roles required even actual engineering background

Small anecdote: pat gelsinger, intel ceo, started as a technician at intel (iirc) at like years old or something like that.

That entry level job paid enough that he could have a roof on his head and i guess covered his university tuition?

I’m not making this up: it’s all in his book he wrote about his life (not sure I recommend the book)

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#230

Post by s1artibartfast »

no_wizard wrote: post #106

Wouldn't GlobalFoundries (HQ in New York and supposedly on the "Trusted Foundry" list) have made more sense, since they fabricate chips for multiple different companies, where as Intel only makes them for Intel? Boosts a competitor, opens up fab capacity for all and moves the needle on the intentions behind the CHIPS act, all at once.

Global Founders doesn't have the capital to uphold their side of the deal this size.

Intel is investing 75 billion.

GLOBALFOUNDRIES entire market cap is 25 billion.

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