People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one • Hacker News Board

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#281

Post by sktrdie » Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 4:36 PM UTC

apexalpha wrote: post #142

These (American) articles on urbanism and what not always make it seems much more insane than it is. I live in the Netherlands, a country usually lauded for it's bicycles and public transport and what not. And let me tell you: We still drive cars. All the time. Even in Amsterdam, our biggest city, 4/10 families still owns their personal car. In the Netherlands as a whole it's 9.5/10 or so. It's about THE MIX of optio…

Where do you get this data from? I've been living in Amsterdam for 5 years now and all of my friends or people that I know of that live somewhat in the city don't have a car... because (1) they can't afford it and (2) they don't need it. Biking infra is so freaking amazing that it makes me want to bike all the time instead of getting the car (even if I had one). Driving around with a car in Amsterdam is just madness. I did it a few times for moving heavy stuff around and it's a mess because you're redirected across streets making it 5x longer to get to where you have to.

I think your experience comes more from people living outside the dutch cities, in more rural areas? Then it makes sense to own a car. It doesn't make sense in a densely populated area.

But anyway the Netherlands has really figured it out when it comes to public transport. No other place comes close in my experience. People who grew up here perhaps don't realize how lucky they area... and how shit it is in other places.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#282

Post by inglor_cz » Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 4:41 PM UTC

NinjaSaves wrote: post #93

My biggest point on car free cities is that it is supported fervently by the people who would gain massive amounts of power over others if nobody had a car. If you're dependent on public transport, it can be taken away from you as leverage.

"If you're dependent on public transport, it can be taken away from you as leverage."

I have always lived in Czech cities with extensive public transport and I have never heard of this kind of punishment, ever. Neither against communities, nor against people.

Of all the risks, this is probably the most theoretical one.

On the other hand, suspending a driving licence is pretty straightforward and it happens daily, CZ or US. And yes, sometimes it is done for leverage in situations that have nothing to do with road safety. For example, in some jurisdictions, if you don't pay child support, they will suspend your driving licence as a punishment / motivation.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#283

Post by axpy » Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 4:42 PM UTC

pxtail wrote: post #253

apexalpha wrote: post #142

These (American) articles on urbanism and what not always make it seems much more insane than it is. I live in the Netherlands, a country usually lauded for it's bicycles and public transport and what not. And let me tell you: We still drive cars. All the time. Even in Amsterdam, our biggest city, 4/10 families still owns their personal car. In the Netherlands as a whole it's 9.5/10 or so. It's about THE MIX of optio…

> These (American) articles on urbanism and what not always make it seems much more insane than it is. Wholeheartedly agree, and what is also funny that usually it is described from POV of citizen living in: tier one city center with mild weather whole year round and relatively flat topography/terrain - and at the same time it's written in a way that suggest that it's THE SOLUTION absolutely applicable everywhere els…

I think you are missing the point. Yes I am currently living in Europe and yes almost every family own a car.The difference is when, how frequently its used and also the fact that you have alternatives. These article are idealiziling a car-free lifestyle that is definitely not quite ubiquitous but it does exists. Also, your idealized weather and topo do exists in the US, think California (and I would argue the entire west coast) but the infra, urbanism and often the laws do not allowe safe alternatives to cars and this is the core of the problem. Your comment make it like the whole EU has Mediterranean climate or is flat as Amsterdam, which cannot be further from the reality.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#284

Post by dml2135 » Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 4:48 PM UTC

AmigoCharlie wrote: post #279

dml2135 wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to be a downer, I do sympathize with all you wrote here. But its not a simple as, people have different preferences and we should let everyone do what suits them. Cars have major externalities that harm the environment and affects the well-being of others.

Also extremely rigid ideologies and a Pol-Pot-like approach to reality (as if in: "If someone does something that I don't like, he should not be allowed to do it") have huge externalities.

Well it seems like we’ve hit Godwin’s law already, so this is probably a good point to stop.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#285

Post by ghaff » Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 4:49 PM UTC

addcommitpush wrote: post #274

ghaff wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe yes maybe no. A lot of the jobs in a big city metro are out in the burbs. Until fairly recently, my company's only office in the area was a 45 minute drive from downtown. There are more tech jobs in the city proper than there were 15-20 years ago when there were approximately zero. But a lot of the jobs in the area are still spread around the suburbs and exurbs.

I don't think proponents of the "car-free" or "15-minutes" cities have: - supermarkets are super close - everything else is super far (including workplaces) - you don't have a car in mind. I don't think that in London (the main example in the article) most jobs are a 45 minute drive from central London nor that most people drive to work.

>nor that most people drive to work

That's probably true in Boston as well. But that's because, if you work 45 minutes out of Boston--of which there are many companies along the Route 128 or 495 corridors--you probably don't live in Boston unless you're a die-hard urbanite willing to put in a long commute to your suburban job. (To be fair, a lot of the west coast companies that established Boston outposts are in town and local suburban companies increasingly have options for people to work in a city office (or remotely) if they want to.)

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#286

Post by TrueGeek » Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 4:49 PM UTC

sktrdie wrote: post #281

apexalpha wrote: post #142

These (American) articles on urbanism and what not always make it seems much more insane than it is. I live in the Netherlands, a country usually lauded for it's bicycles and public transport and what not. And let me tell you: We still drive cars. All the time. Even in Amsterdam, our biggest city, 4/10 families still owns their personal car. In the Netherlands as a whole it's 9.5/10 or so. It's about THE MIX of optio…

Where do you get this data from? I've been living in Amsterdam for 5 years now and all of my friends or people that I know of that live somewhat in the city don't have a car... because (1) they can't afford it and (2) they don't need it. Biking infra is so freaking amazing that it makes me want to bike all the time instead of getting the car (even if I had one). Driving around with a car in Amsterdam is just madness.…

Per capita car ownership in The Netherlands is comparable to nearby countries:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territor...

Not taking a side, I agree with you that trying to use a car in any of the larger Dutch cities would be crazy. But car ownership has sadly been on the rise recently.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#287

Post by ProcNetDev » Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 4:49 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #84

CharlieDigital wrote: post #8

I was back in Taiwan last year after an extended absence. It's pretty amazing how easy it is to get around with a combination of the mass rapid transit (MRT) system and high speed rail (HSR). When I was last there, you still needed to take a bus or taxi from TPE to the city center. Now right from TPE airport, you can be in either Taipei city center in 30 minutes (MRT) or on the other end of the island in short order…

Do you have any children? I can't imagine car free city is good when you have two or more young children. For one, groceries are a problem as you likely need to stock more food to cook. Sure you can go to the store every other day but that takes a lot of time and is more expensive. Plus you are on a lot tighter schedule. Most people with kids race home to pick up children and don't want to stop by the store and schle…

I can easily fit a Costco run on my e cargo bike.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#288

Post by nothercastle » Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 4:50 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #269

oaiey wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2/3 is very realistic even for households. It is just prohibitive time wise (it takes more times in most cities to go by car than by train) and parking wise (densities is high, parking is on the street, searching a parking slot up to an hour, ...). You do not want to own a car.

Greater Paris has a 60-65% car ownership rate among households [1]. [1] https://www.ceicdata.com/en/france/motor-vehicle-ownership-p...

Nailed it on finding the relevant statistic that’s representative of the actual situation

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#289

Post by dividefuel » Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 4:54 PM UTC

gizmo wrote: post #273

dividefuel wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Door-to-door, a Costco trip usually takes me about 90 minutes. I go to Costco probably once every two weeks. Just a data point. I'd love to hear how often urbanites go to the grocery store and how long each trip typically takes.

If you go once every 2 weeks, where do you get your fresh fruit and veggies? Do you just live off of frozen food? Do you plan all your meals 2 weeks ahead? What if you have people coming over for dinner on short notice? Urbanites still have the option to go to a big-box grocery store. Mine is an 8-minute drive away, but we just never go there.

Ah, Costco isn't the only grocery store I go to. Roughly, I grocery shop once per week, alternating between Costco and other grocery stores where I buy fresh foods or smaller items that don't make sense from Costco.

My personal feeling is being able to stock up in bulk is a net timesaving benefit of car-centric living, BUT the tradeoff comes when you only need a few things from the store. On the one hand, it's only about once or twice a month that I need to go to the store because I need just 2-3 very specific things. However it's a major annoyance, and it'd definitely be nice to be able to walk a short distance to get them.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#290

Post by bmicraft » Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 5:03 PM UTC

CharlieDigital wrote: post #94

safety1st wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've lived in a number of cities across three continents and I tend to think that the idea of a "car-free" city is a quintessentially North American overreaction to a quintessentially North American problem. Like yes Wired we know that the suburb and the American commute have some serious downsides and the US leaned way too much into this model during a period of high population growth. However it's not like other ap…

> But this is a huge reorganization of people's lives and existing property development that there's going to be a lot of pushback against and it's not all going to be nimbyism If anything, I feel like Taiwan's model should prove that you can do it anywhere precisely because it was already so dense and built up on top of being in an area with very high seismic activity. It's not like they could find a lot of room to…

But that's precisely the problem, isn't it? It doesn't pay to build a subway when you don't have enough density. Most other forms of transit also get stuck in traffic.