Earlier quoted context omitted.
Source?
> The evidence is clear that vitamin D toxicity is one of the rarest medical conditions and is typically due to intentional or inadvertent intake of extremely high doses of vitamin D (usually in the range of >50,000-100,000 IU/d for months to years). https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196%281...
Story of Vitamin D Toxicity (2022)
141–150 of 170 posts
Re: Story of Vitamin D Toxicity (2022)
#142Earlier quoted context omitted.
Quotes without a source? > 1mg will instantly kill you.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8811610/ Figured people can Google, all I bring is awareness this is widely overblown, having taken myself, for therapeutic purposes, upwards of 100k IU per day for months without doctor supervision (but doing it correctly, with a very low calcium diet). People take vit D megadoses for autoimmunity, with significant success, but I'm not discussing this here.
You mean for compensating for the low vit D levels due to constant inflammation seen in autoimmunity? or to decrease autoimmunity? I have autoimmune diseases and my vit D goes down to about 7 ng/mL without supplementation, so I'm curious.
Re: Story of Vitamin D Toxicity (2022)
#143I struggle to believe that a physician told her to take 5000 IU of vitamin D daily for 5+ years. This is nearly 10x canada's recommended winter time dose for adults under 70. After years of struggling with severe joint pain and mental fog/depression, among other things it was discovered that I had critically low vitamin D. They prescribed the 5000 dose but told me at least 10 times how I should NOT continue this high…
The recommendation for 200 to 800 IU daily is for people who already have normal vitamin D levels. To correct vitamin D deficiency , modern sources recommend a minimum of 1,500 to 2,000 IU daily [1]. The Endocrine Society even recommends 6,000 IU daily [2], so 5,000 IU is not crazy by any means. There is also nothing crazy about five years of supplementation: Many people won't maintain normal vitamin D levels even af…
Some people need higher doses of Vitamin D because they have problems with Vitamin D metabolism. Those people are outliers as well.
And there are people who can take 5,000 units of Vitamin D over a prolonged period and still have normal calcium levels. The key here is that they are checking calcium and Vitamin D levels.
For most people who need Vitamin D, a dose of 1,000 to 2,000 units daily is more than enough. None of your articles contradict that, and actually that is the dose they are recommending.
Re: Story of Vitamin D Toxicity (2022)
#144https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9258852/
"supplementation was associated with a significant lower risk of both Covid-19 severe disease (SRR 0.38, 95% CI 0.20–0.72, 6 studies) and mortality (SRR 0.35, 95% CI 0.17–0.70, 8 studies)"
Note that in "part 3" devaboone says Vit D failed to live up to its expectation and she posts a graph showing that Vit D only works to counter Vit D deficiency.
Since then a study came out, studying 200 000+ individuals (which is 10x more than the biggest study in the studies she cherry picked in her part 3 if I'm not mistaken), showing that Vit D supplementation did (and does) help combat the worst disease the world has known in decades (if not centuries).
Time to update the studies used in her "part 3" to conclude that Vit D supplementation only helps fixing Vit D deficiency?
For my casual reading of that study I linked to is this: those who told people to start taking Vit D supplementation during Covid did actually save lives and did actually help many have less severe symptoms.
I do think that that ship has sailed: we now know Vit D supplementation does work.
We can nitpick on whether 1000 IU or 2000 IU per day is too much or not but I don't think that saying that "Vit D supplementation only works at fixing Vit D deficiency" is a serious take anymore (once again: Part 3 clearly shows a graph saying just that).
Re: Story of Vitamin D Toxicity (2022)
#145Earlier quoted context omitted.
That’s most likely because Canada’s RDA for this is far too low. I take 5000IU daily during winter. I know this is the right dose for me because I actually test my blood for vitamin D deficiency twice a year, and 5000IU puts it smack dab in the middle of the normal range. In the summer I take 2000IU.
From the article: * Of course, there is a selection bias in who comes to me. There are people out there doing just fine on 5000 units of Vitamin D daily. I only see the ones who develop high calcium levels. But I see enough of them to know that this is not an exceptionally rare occurrence. I have been to lectures in which physicians have claimed that Vitamin D toxicity almost never occurs. In my experience, this is f…
Re: Story of Vitamin D Toxicity (2022)
#146First, about the patient being an outlier:
I wrote the article because I see cases like hers pretty frequently, and it’s frustrating. She is an outlier in the severity of her symptoms, but not an outlier in getting Vitamin D toxicity from 5,000 units daily. I get at least one patient a week contacting me about their high calcium levels - and when I get into their medical history it is clear that Vitamin D is the cause of the high calcium. In most cases, they are on 5,000 units daily. Stopping the Vitamin D allows the calcium to drop back to normal, though it usually takes a few months.
Regarding those of you on high doses who are doing just fine:
I believe you. This actually doesn’t change the point of my article. I even state in there that some people can take high doses and not develop any problems. And some people need higher doses of Vitamin D because they have problems with Vitamin D metabolism. In addition, there are people on higher doses because they are treating other medical conditions like psoriasis. The point of my article is that you need to monitor your calcium and Vitamin D levels if you are going to take these higher doses. And you need to know the risks of taking high-dose Vitamin D over a long period of time. There are risks to any medication; treat Vitamin D like the medication that it is.
About the multiple studies posted here with statements that high-dose Vitamin D is safe and toxicity is rare:
It's really important to follow the sources. I cannot say this enough. Most of the articles cited are review articles that are simply repeating things from other review articles. You have to keep following the citations back to find the actual studies in which humans consumed Vitamin D.
When you do that, you find very few human studies on high doses. The larger studies on Vitamin D will typically use more moderate doses, such as 2,000 units daily. Most of the articles on high doses are case reports in which someone took outrageous amounts of Vitamin D and eventually got really sick from it. These case reports don’t tell us where the safe level is, only that some people can tolerate outrageous doses for a short period of time.
But isn’t there an actual study showing that high doses are safe? One controlled study that many of the review articles refer back to is a small study done in men in high latitudes in winter, when skin production of Vitamin D is decreased. It consisted of a small number of patients who were randomized to receive different amounts of Vitamin D, from none to 10,000 units daily. Only a small number actually got 10,000 units a day, the highest dose. And this was over a period of just 5 months, in the winter, in high latitude, when it is difficult to get skin production of Vitamin D. You can read the article here: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12499343/ Also note that in this study, they found that adequate Vitamin D levels were maintained with doses well under 10,000 units daily.
A few of the review articles lead back to Michael Holick, controversial figure. He is well-known for pushing high doses of Vitamin D. Please read this NY Times article for a great summary of the issues here: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/18/business/vitamin-d-michae...
Regarding skin production of Vitamin D and why you don’t overdose on the sun:
Others mentioned this in their responses, but just to reiterate: you can’t get toxic levels of Vitamin D from being in the sun, because of the complex interactions that occur with UVB exposure. For those who want a very detailed explanation, read this article: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.4161/derm.24494. TL;DR version: after a certain amount of previtamin D and Vitamin D3 is made as a result of UVB radiation, excess exposure then causes breakdown of these into products that are inactive, so you get to an equilibrium where you can’t make more Vitamin D even with more sun exposure.
And for those who think I am somehow anti-Vitamin D:
I take Vitamin D, and recommend it to patients all the time (unless they have high calcium). I recommend moderate amounts, since for most people a dose of 1,000 to 2,000 units daily is more than enough. I do have patients who need to take much higher doses, and I have some patients on 5,000 units daily who are doing just fine. There are even rare patients who need more than that. The key here is that I’m monitoring their calcium and Vitamin D levels, and I only recommend 5,000 units daily if there is some evidence that they require it.
About selling high doses in pharmacies:
I really don’t like that in the US you can pretty easily buy 10,000 unit Vitamin D pills over the counter at common pharmacies (example: https://www.walgreens.com/store/c/nature's-bounty-d3-10,000-.... I would prefer that pharmacies sold Vitamin D in doses of 1,000 or 2,000 units, rather than 5,000 units, since the lower doses are almost always safe, but the higher doses may not be. Someone mentioned that Tylenol and ibuprofen are also dangerous, but available over the counter. This is not exactly the same thing, since those bottles are generally very conservative in how much they recommend taking, with strict warnings about not taking too much. This is not the case with most Vitamin D bottles.
If you want more info on Vitamin D, I wrote a couple other posts that cover some important background information and then the evidence for Vitamin D: Part 1, Basics of Vitamin D: https://www.devaboone.com/post/vitamin-d-part-1-back-to-basi... Part 3, Evidence for supplementation: https://www.devaboone.com/post/vitamin-d-part-3-the-evidence
Note that I wrote these several years ago in 2020. There have been more trials published since then, but the results are similar.
Re: Story of Vitamin D Toxicity (2022)
#147Here's another take on the subject: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9258852/ "supplementation was associated with a significant lower risk of both Covid-19 severe disease (SRR 0.38, 95% CI 0.20–0.72, 6 studies) and mortality (SRR 0.35, 95% CI 0.17–0.70, 8 studies)" Note that in "part 3" devaboone says Vit D failed to live up to its expectation and she posts a graph showing that Vit D only works to counte…
The image from my post that you are referring to is looking only at RCTs. In RCTs, Vitamin D supplementation rarely shows a positive effect. This does not mean that Vitamin D supplementation is useless.
Even in my post from 2020, I mention that respiratory illness is one area that has shown a benefit of Vitamin D. Here is what I wrote:
"The areas in which meta-analyses have identified benefits from Vitamin D:
Fracture prevention in elderly nursing home residents (when also given with calcium): This is not surprising. We know that Vitamin D and calcium can prevent bone loss in severe Vitamin D deficiency. Elderly adults who are not getting outside are more likely to be severely deficient in Vitamin D, and supplements likely help.
Asthma and respiratory infection: Vitamin D seems to reduce asthma attacks in adults with mild to moderate disease, and daily or weekly Vitamin D seems to prevent acute respiratory infection in those with Vitamin D less than 10 ng/ml (25 nmol/l). There is considerable excitement around Vitamin D's potential role in Covid treatment, though we do not yet have enough evidence to make a definitive conclusion.
Cancer mortality: Vitamin D does not appear to prevent cancer, but may reduce death rates from cancer overall (when all cancers are combined) when Vitamin D is taken for several years. It is not known whether Vitamin D itself fights cancer. It could also be that individuals with cancer are more prone to developing severe Vitamin D deficiency, which leads to bone loss, fragility, and fractures, which increase mortality.
Atopic dermatitis (eczema): Vitamin D supplementation may prevent exacerbation of eczema. There are only a small number of trials, with small numbers of patients, so this requires more research."
We do have more information on Covid and Vitamin D now, and I would agree that Vitamin D was likely beneficial for some people. I would also add that I had a bunch of patients come in with high calcium because they started high-dose Vitamin D during Covid and never decreased the dose.
Re: Story of Vitamin D Toxicity (2022)
#148Earlier quoted context omitted.
The widely used daily recommended amounts of Vitamin D (600 IU in the US and Canada) are wrong, by a factor of 10, and based on a math typo that no one caught until 2017: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5541280/ . I guess many still don't realize this fact. "We call public health authorities to consider designating as the RDA ... around 8000 IU for adults"
This should be its own HN submission. I want a discussion on this. Edit: nevermind, it was posted 2 times already [1, 2]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24768721 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15867918
Re: Story of Vitamin D Toxicity (2022)
#149Earlier quoted context omitted.
The recommendation for 200 to 800 IU daily is for people who already have normal vitamin D levels. To correct vitamin D deficiency , modern sources recommend a minimum of 1,500 to 2,000 IU daily [1]. The Endocrine Society even recommends 6,000 IU daily [2], so 5,000 IU is not crazy by any means. There is also nothing crazy about five years of supplementation: Many people won't maintain normal vitamin D levels even af…
I wrote the article because I see cases like hers pretty frequently. She is an outlier in the severity of her symptoms, but not an outlier in getting Vitamin D toxicity from 5,000 units daily. I get at least one patient a week contacting me about their high calcium levels - and when I get into their medical history it is clear that Vitamin D is the cause of the high calcium. In most cases, they are on 5,000 units dai…
I guess your argument is that a medication that requires a provider to order follow up labs shouldn't be OTC. My counter is that there are probably at least one to two orders of magnitude more people hospitalized for NSAID induced renal injury annually than there are people hospitalized for vitamin D induced hypercalcemia. Maybe those people could be saved from renal injury if their PCP followed their creatinine, but if we set the bar at that level than virtually no medication would qualify for OTC. This is an era where patients expect more autonomy, including the ability to self direct treatment with lower risk medications. You're absolutely right that vitamin D shouldn't be billed as zero risk, but it's certainly low risk.
As to vitamin D being a hormone, I think that's neither here nor there, especially if the question is whether vitamin D should be available OTC. I think patients tend to mentally translate "hormone" to steroid sex hormones or HGH, since those are the ones that they read and hear about in the media. Those have a lower therapeutic index and broader constellation of side effects than vitamin D does. So even though it is completely accurate to call vitamin D a hormone, it's a term that is overloaded with so much baggage that I don't think it's useful for communicating with laypeople.
Anyway, I disagree with those points, but I do think parts 1 and 3 of your article series were quite good. I have to admit that I didn't realize some labs set the upper limit of normal for 25(OH) that high, so part 2 was a learning point for me as well.
Re: Story of Vitamin D Toxicity (2022)
#150Earlier quoted context omitted.
The audacity to believe you know everything about this subject. Super-high dosages are used in loading protocols before switching to a smaller maintenance dosage.
It didn't sound like arrogance to me. The "if" at the start of the sentence indicates they are not asserting their conclusion as the only truth. That said, if toxicity is a large concern, it's strange that companies sell such high dosages at least without some kind of warning. I bet a sufficient warning would prevent at least some cases of toxicity