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The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

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Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#271

Post by SpiderX »

krschultz wrote: post #215
mkramlich wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fuck college. It's not the only way to learn, to meet people, or to show your expertise, capabilities and accomplishments anymore. We have this thing called the Internet now. Write a book. Put a PDF online. Record a video of yourself giving an intelligent speech or showing some useful talent. Put it on YouTube. Write software. Put on GitHub. Answer technical questions well on StackExchange (or whatever for your parti…

Fuck people who bitch about how expensive college is. You know how much I paid for college? $0. You know why I paid that? Because in high school I did a lot less than what you outlined above, but it was enough to get a scholarship to go to college. Six great schools looked at my application and offered me somewhere between a discounted rate and a full ride + stipend on top of that. And I was only 20th in my high scho…

I didn't get a scholarship, I might have been offered one if I took the college aptitude tests, but I didn't feel like going to college at the end of high school - I was sick of high school as it was, nothing but cliques and kids picking on me. I hated it. I didn't want another 4 years of the same stuff. So, I probably wouldn't have gone to college even if I was offered a scholarship. However, now I am considering going to college, (many years later) and I doubt anyone would give me a scholarship now. I've become a successful programmer just from teaching myself.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#272

Post by eli_gottlieb »

glesica wrote: post #204
potatolicious wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When education costs so much that one needs to take out a loan that then takes decades to repay, it must necessarily be job-training. It's practically impossible to justify otherwise. IMO it's impossible to expect the education system to be more holistic and less training-oriented unless the costs drop to the point where it's realistic to pursue it knowing there is not necessarily a monetary reward at the end.

I see your point, but I think you've made a couple assumptions that aren't necessarily accurate. First, higher education needn't be solely one or the other. There have also been some important points brought up elsewhere in the comments about the "sticker price" versus what students actually pay. Additionally, this is a complex issue, especially in the US where the perception of the value of a degree can vary wildly…

Actually, the largest single undergraduate major is "BA in Business". This signifies the problem: the plurality of undergraduates are not majoring in a Liberal Art or Science (those arts and sciences worthy of a Free Man and forming the basis of his intellectual life, hence "liberal") but in General Hope-I-Get-a-Job Studies.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#273

Post by prodigal_erik »

wtvanhest wrote: post #267
yashchandra wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It is too bad school is too expensive, but it doesn't matter." It does matter. The schools that are worth anything are too expensive (exceptions are there of course) while the cheap ones (read cheap schools.

It does matter. The schools that are worth anything are too expensive (exceptions are there of course) while the cheap ones (read You are saying this: Ivy/Private School > No college > State School That statement is absolutely ridiculous.

If the value of college is dominated by its http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_(economics) effect, a degree from the "wrong" school could send such a negative signal (you weren't wise enough to skip the degree even though you couldn't get admitted to the "right" school) that the innate value of the education you received doesn't make up for it. I hope this doesn't hold broadly, because I went to a state university. But I would think less of someone proudly displaying, e.g., a degree from a known http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diploma_mill, so it's at least possible for a degree to be worse than useless—the question is how mediocre a school would have to be.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#274

Post by freehunter »

Kadrith wrote: post #255
wtvanhest wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are tons of undergrad programs that are less than $10k per year. Big state schools which will give you all the social experiences you need and some of the learning. No HR department can interview people without a degree when there are so many people with degrees. A degree doesn't get you in the door, but is a minimum standard for just about any job. It is too bad school is too expensive, but it doesn't matter.

"No HR department can interview people without a degree when there are so many people with degrees. A degree doesn't get you in the door, but is a minimum standard for just about any job." Nonsense. I have never been to college and I am currently responsible for the IT Security of a mid-sized health network. Not only was I hired without a degree but I've been promoted several times. I also have no technical certifica…

And on the other end of the spectrum, I've been an "intern" with a 10,000+ employee nationwide corporation for over a solid, full-time year now and have 2 years part time experience prior to this position in the information security and network infrastructure world. Yet I'm waiting to be hired full time (or even part time) until I finish my degree. I've earned several awards for my work, and for one quarter actually turned the security department into a profit center based on information I provided about a vendor causing a major security breech (and the resulting lawsuit).

It's a great company, but my experience doesn't matter to them. Without a degree, I cannot be hired. Schools in my state don't even offer Security degrees, so it's not a matter of what the degree says, it's a matter of having the degree. I literally cannot do anything more to prove my value to the company. They don't care. It's about the paper.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#275

Post by eli_gottlieb »

juiceandjuice wrote: post #174
mkramlich wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fuck college. It's not the only way to learn, to meet people, or to show your expertise, capabilities and accomplishments anymore. We have this thing called the Internet now. Write a book. Put a PDF online. Record a video of yourself giving an intelligent speech or showing some useful talent. Put it on YouTube. Write software. Put on GitHub. Answer technical questions well on StackExchange (or whatever for your parti…

College isn't just for web programmers.

Unfortunately, Hacker News mostly is.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#276

Post by jey »

randomdata wrote: post #108
jey wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does say "BS Computer Science or equivalent " -- so they're asking for a certain level of education, which doesn't necessarily have to be in the form of a college degree.

It is interesting that they still choose to use college-level credentials as the baseline metric though. Why not "Four years of demonstrable self-directed learning in the study, or equivalent"?

Because a college degree is simply the most common way that bullet point is satisfied. Why use a more obscure standard to convey the requirement?

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#277

Post by krschultz »

F_J_H wrote: post #258
krschultz wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fuck people who bitch about how expensive college is. You know how much I paid for college? $0. You know why I paid that? Because in high school I did a lot less than what you outlined above, but it was enough to get a scholarship to go to college. Six great schools looked at my application and offered me somewhere between a discounted rate and a full ride + stipend on top of that. And I was only 20th in my high scho…

Did the failing mark on your "How to Win Friends and Influence People" book report bring down your GPA? ;-) I had the same experience as you (college paid for via scholarships), but the scholarships available differ from school to school and community to community. So, not everyone has that as an option.

Hardly, I hand out copies of that book and truly believe it, but tongue-in-cheek doesn't come across well on the internet.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#278

Post by eli_gottlieb »

tsotha wrote: post #155
ender7 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, "went to MIT" is both easily recognizable and easily verified. "Built a fusion reactor in my basement" is neither of those things. Similarly, "check out my GitHub" has many of the same problems. I'm sorry, but most employers don't have time to look you up on GitHub to crawl through all your commits. That will happen if you get past the first cut, but it won't do anything beforehand. Sure, you can put "…

>Unfortunately, "went to MIT" is both easily recognizable and easily verified. Most people miss the point on why this is important. MIT doesn't teach its undergrads anything they couldn't learn at the local state school for a fraction of the price. But you have to be really smart to get in to MIT. That's what employers care about - not what you did when you were there, but that you got in. The root of the problem is…

MIT doesn't teach its undergrads anything they couldn't learn at the local state school for a fraction of the price.

As a matter of fact, yes, UMass Amherst is quite competitive with MIT in STEM departments. Thanks for noticing.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#279

Post by wtvanhest »

wtvanhest wrote: post #267
yashchandra wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It is too bad school is too expensive, but it doesn't matter." It does matter. The schools that are worth anything are too expensive (exceptions are there of course) while the cheap ones (read cheap schools.

It does matter. The schools that are worth anything are too expensive (exceptions are there of course) while the cheap ones (read You are saying this: Ivy/Private School > No college > State School That statement is absolutely ridiculous.

I can't reply to prodigal_erik because the thread is too long, but the definition of diploma mill you provided is refering to non accredited universities.

I am talking about accredited universities, big state schools that are very affordable and provide fairly good educations.

I would rather attend one of those than no school at all.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#280

Post by WalterBright »

Domenic_S wrote: post #247
WalterBright wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 4-year outdated programs A good STEM program teaches you how to think, and that never gets outdated. Colleges offer a smorgasbord of courses to take. If you select courses for the easiest route to a degree, you won't be that employable. If you select courses that will give you the best foundation for your chosen career, that'll do much better. For example, although I got a degree in engineering, I made sure I also…

> A good STEM program teaches you how to think, and that never gets outdated. Honest question: does one not learn to think before college? Where are the parents? What happened in high school?

What I mean by "how to think" is developing organized thought processes for solving (seemingly) hard problems. For example, breaking a large problem into smaller ones, solving the smaller ones, then assembling the solution into a larger one. When faced with a problem, determining what you know and don't know about it. An organized methodology for distinguishing facts from baloney.

All these skills are developed in the process of STEM training. I know I got an awful lot better at it after 4 years of that, and I can see the deficits in those abilities in people who have not undergone such.

For example, given someone debugging their program - I see many programmers who will just try guessing things randomly. If they get lucky with this approach, they often have little idea of why their change made it work. (Often, nor do they care.) But they do spend an awful lot of time with this method, compared with someone who sets about finding the problem in an organized fashion.

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