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The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

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Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#121

Post by vladd »

jellicle wrote: post #43

Mark Cuban writes: "As an employer I want the best prepared and qualified employees. I could care less if the source of their education was accredited by a bunch of old men and women who think they know what is best for the world. I want people who can do the job. I want the best and brightest. Not a piece of paper." So, I suppose I could be wrong, but I would be willing to bet a great deal of money that Mark Cuban d…

Today the same institutions provide education and certify skills. If nothing else, it's an obvious conflict of interests that's tolerated only because historically there was no other practical way around it. The war for talent and the online classes will soon disrupt that - you'll be able to give interviews/tests in a 2-day examination and get a paper saying what you really know (like SAT is for pupils).

And when that link fails, when you can get a certificate in 3 days as opposed to 3 years, when you can study interactive online courses with top-notch content at your own rhythm as opposed to a 4-year outdated programs, then it will happen: certification will be independent and traditional universities will have serious disruption in their tuition prices and budgets.

What will not happen is the demise of high-end education and student loans. The senate & president won't let it fall; US needs to keep itself competitive, especially versus EU where most states heavily subsidize education from taxes. The society and the police can't afford uneducated children.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#122

Post by gammarator »

hedgie wrote: post #105
mathattack wrote: post #97

He nails the key issue - cheap easy money that can be flipped later for a high paying job. Of course the job may or may not be there. It's worth it for Harvard, but perhaps not for Bradley.

not sure that's the case. "Here, however, is what was explosive: Dale and Krueger concluded that students, who were accepted into elite schools, but went to less selective institutions, earned salaries just as high as Ivy League grads. For instance, if a teenager gained entry to Harvard, but ended up attending Penn State, his or her salary prospects would be the same. In the pair's newest study, the findings are even…

Interesting, although the authors note a caveat:

"As with the earlier study, there were some students who did fare better financially if they attended elite schools. The students who fell into this category were Latino, black, and low-income students, as well as those whose parents did not graduate from college."

Its worth noting, though, that the Ivys provide much smoother entry into jobs in high finance than less selective schools, so if one's only goal is maximizing salary it does make a difference.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#123

Post by anamax »

glesica wrote: post #40

This is just absurd. Non-accredited, branded schools will provide better education for less money? Really? I assume he's referring to the growing for-profit college industry. Yet for-profit colleges are actually the biggest culprits driving up the student debt. Students at for-profit colleges run up more debt, are more likely to drop out, and are more likely to end up under-employed than those at traditional universi…

> Yet for-profit colleges are actually the biggest culprits driving up the student debt. Students at for-profit colleges run up more debt, are more likely to drop out, and are more likely to end up under-employed than those at traditional universities.

They're also the people that traditional universities don't admit for the most part.

We can find a subset of students at traditional universities who are like the students at for-profit schools. Are you certain about the results of comparing apples to apples?

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#124

Post by WalterBright »

kamaal wrote: post #88
ender7 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, "went to MIT" is both easily recognizable and easily verified. "Built a fusion reactor in my basement" is neither of those things. Similarly, "check out my GitHub" has many of the same problems. I'm sorry, but most employers don't have time to look you up on GitHub to crawl through all your commits. That will happen if you get past the first cut, but it won't do anything beforehand. Sure, you can put "…

>> They simply don't have the time to do research on each one. As with anything, you have to find some way to stand out, but in a way that doesn't require them to visit your basement. In that case they shouldn't look too surprised if they end up hiring wrong people. Or they end up hiring a person with a lot of paper degrees but can't move a coin on the table. Because you ultimately get what your truly ask for. You as…

> In that case they shouldn't look too surprised if they end up hiring wrong people.

The reality is that they get so many resumes, like thousands, they are forced to do an initial culling. That cull takes about 2 to 3 seconds per resume.

If you don't have a degree, you won't make the cut. We all know that means some great candidates will be missed. But any means of whittling down those thousand candidates runs such a risk.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#125

Post by randomdata »

ender7 wrote: post #103
kamaal wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> They simply don't have the time to do research on each one. As with anything, you have to find some way to stand out, but in a way that doesn't require them to visit your basement. In that case they shouldn't look too surprised if they end up hiring wrong people. Or they end up hiring a person with a lot of paper degrees but can't move a coin on the table. Because you ultimately get what your truly ask for. You as…

Yeah, I'm not arguing that a degree is a good indicator of performance. You have to put yourself in the shoes of the person in charge of hiring. If you advertise a well-paid tech position, you will probably get thousands of applications. You can't read them all in elaborate detail. You can't visit everyone's Github. You just don't have time. So how do you cull? Just randomly select 10% and go with that? What if you h…

Ultimately, it boils down to filtering by reputation. The data says that most jobs are acquired through existing connections before it is ever advertised to the public, but in those outlier cases, a degree gives a nod to you from a known credible source.

In the world of social networks and artificial intelligence, it is interesting that nothing has come up to provide better recommendations. Perhaps because it's not really needed in the software industry at this point (at least if you believe there is a shortage of talent), so it is not noticed as a problem by the programmers who are capable of making such a system a reality.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#126

Post by dopkew »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #109
glesica wrote: post #40

This is just absurd. Non-accredited, branded schools will provide better education for less money? Really? I assume he's referring to the growing for-profit college industry. Yet for-profit colleges are actually the biggest culprits driving up the student debt. Students at for-profit colleges run up more debt, are more likely to drop out, and are more likely to end up under-employed than those at traditional universi…

What I find disturbing here is the complete, total, hegemonic shift to thinking of education as job-training.

We must differentiate between 'Education' in the ideal sense, and 'technical education' or 'training'. People don't go to technical colleges for 'Education', but for competency in a knowledge domain, and in applying it.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#127

Post by WalterBright »

vladd wrote: post #121
jellicle wrote: post #43

Mark Cuban writes: "As an employer I want the best prepared and qualified employees. I could care less if the source of their education was accredited by a bunch of old men and women who think they know what is best for the world. I want people who can do the job. I want the best and brightest. Not a piece of paper." So, I suppose I could be wrong, but I would be willing to bet a great deal of money that Mark Cuban d…

Today the same institutions provide education and certify skills. If nothing else, it's an obvious conflict of interests that's tolerated only because historically there was no other practical way around it. The war for talent and the online classes will soon disrupt that - you'll be able to give interviews/tests in a 2-day examination and get a paper saying what you really know (like SAT is for pupils). And when tha…

> 4-year outdated programs

A good STEM program teaches you how to think, and that never gets outdated.

Colleges offer a smorgasbord of courses to take. If you select courses for the easiest route to a degree, you won't be that employable. If you select courses that will give you the best foundation for your chosen career, that'll do much better.

For example, although I got a degree in engineering, I made sure I also took a class in business accounting. (That class has paid off well for me.)

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#128

Post by talmand »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #120
talmand wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you take a course called Advanced Rails Techologies? Did you take the course in question and find it lacking? If not, you shouldn't insult people you don't know who might be interested in such a program. How about you explain, nicely please, why taking something called Advanced Rails Technologies is a bad thing?

How about you explain, nicely please, why taking something called Advanced Rails Technologies is a bad thing? Because "Rails Technologies" have changed drastically in the past 5 years and do so again in the next 5 years. "Modern Web Programming" would have been a good course. "Advanced Rails Technologies" is so ridiculously over-specific and over-current that I simply can't see how it has any value for the future.

So you do not see the benefit in learning what is considered advanced technologies today because it'll change in the future? Why bother learning anything in this field at all?

Or is it just the name they chose? Because it seems really rude of you to insult an entire group of people simply because they wish to take a course of which you do not like the name.

I'm totally lost on your attitude about this.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#129

Post by lordlicorice »

vladd wrote: post #121
jellicle wrote: post #43

Mark Cuban writes: "As an employer I want the best prepared and qualified employees. I could care less if the source of their education was accredited by a bunch of old men and women who think they know what is best for the world. I want people who can do the job. I want the best and brightest. Not a piece of paper." So, I suppose I could be wrong, but I would be willing to bet a great deal of money that Mark Cuban d…

Today the same institutions provide education and certify skills. If nothing else, it's an obvious conflict of interests that's tolerated only because historically there was no other practical way around it. The war for talent and the online classes will soon disrupt that - you'll be able to give interviews/tests in a 2-day examination and get a paper saying what you really know (like SAT is for pupils). And when tha…

Certificates are fine for IT work, but they can't replace degrees for programmers. A degree at a good school shows that you're smart, not just knowledgeable.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#130

Post by glesica »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #109
glesica wrote: post #40

This is just absurd. Non-accredited, branded schools will provide better education for less money? Really? I assume he's referring to the growing for-profit college industry. Yet for-profit colleges are actually the biggest culprits driving up the student debt. Students at for-profit colleges run up more debt, are more likely to drop out, and are more likely to end up under-employed than those at traditional universi…

What I find disturbing here is the complete, total, hegemonic shift to thinking of education as job-training.

Agreed. While job-training is certainly a significant component of the value of education today, it isn't even close to being the most important one.

Most of us live in countries with representative governments (those who don't probably would like to if the movements in Africa and elsewhere are any indication). One of the funny things about this sort of government is that in order for it to function properly, it requires that all participating citizens have a basic understanding of the issues of the day. For better or worse, in the modern world, this requires a fairly extensive, general (liberal, little 'L') education.

For example, there aren't many people who apply the scientific method directly at work (though many jobs benefit from clear, logical thinking). But having an understanding of what "science" entails is critical to a number of public debates.

The same goes for economics, history and even literature and philosophy. These are all subjects that most people don't really need to do their jobs, but that are incredibly important for countless public issues.

For example (and at the risk of starting an unrelated argument, please refrain), Ayn Rand seems to be popular these days. But I wonder how many people out there have actually read "Atlas Shrugged" or "Fountainhead" carefully, or even have the skill necessary to do so.

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