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Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous

macleans.ca

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Re: Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is anyone supposed to pronounce this if they're not from Vancouver and haven't been exposed to indigenous culture there? Same way they do anywhere that isn't English first if it's relevant to them, learn. I'm not so familiar with the language yet, but here's what seems to be a start https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/signs-along-...

If only people would read to the end before reacting. I have no plans to ever visit Vancouver or indeed Canada; I'm interested in how the word is pronounced for the purpose of reading the article . It's not worth it to me to spend half an hour figuring out the pronunciation of a single word. I'm already multilingual and familiar with a range of diacritical marks; it might take other people much longer to put it toget…

> it might take other people much longer to put it together.

Well then they can be upset about it.

> I have no plans to ever visit Vancouver or indeed Canada

That's a shame, it's a beautiful place, but clearly the article is irrelevant to you.

> It's not worth it to me to spend half an hour figuring out the pronunciation of a single word.

Well then you don't have to, and the world continues spinning madly on. Took me about 2 mins though, didn't seem like something to be so stressed about. If you already aren't authentically curious or interested in visiting, then that's your business.

Re: Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a thread full of people with weird preconceptions talking past each-other, this is the most perfectly wrong statement anyone has made. The people you're talking about would strangle this entire country to death (and have) before allowing a single 3-story building to be built outside of the small areas that were already been zoned for it 80 years ago. The Canadian Indigenous identity issues tied up in this project…

You're making my point. I was responding to this comment: >Skyscrapers are not an indigenous lifestyle. I suppose that's not okay to bring up in this context? If people are going to oppose this project, don't do it on the basis of some vaguely bigoted notion that "these skyscrapers don't match the indigenous lifestyle". As if that's the reason the project's opponents are opposing it. It's clearly a smokescreen being…

Skyscrapers not being indigenous has no bearing on whether they should be built or not.

I think we all agree on that. Here's what's really bothering me.

How did you arrive at the conclusion that the quote is implication of opposition to this development? Aside from the author of the article not so subtly injecting that implication, with no context, there's literally nothing to indicate that.

Re: Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Unceded land" means that because 100+ years ago the British settled as they wanted without asking for permission, the land actually still belongs to indigenous people, and not to Canadians, not to the people who currently live on it. "Unceded land" isn't exactly a legal concept, it's more of an activist slogan from people who want to see all public land (e.g. >90% of BC) privatized based on race, or want to hold the…

> "Unceded land" isn't exactly a legal concept, it's more of an activist slogan from people who want to see all public land (e.g. >90% of BC) privatized based on race, or want to hold the threat of that over our heads to get more special treatment based on race. This is a terrible misrepresentation of how “unceeded land” is used. To characterize it as a call to privatize 90% of the land based on race is bonkers. Nobo…

> To characterize it as a call to privatize 90% of the land based on race is bonkers. Nobody means that.

And who are you, to make that claim so confidently on behalf of First Nations, to put limits on them?

We used to have a treaty process to make such claims formally. The First Nation and the Canadian government would sign a treaty that would outline the extent of First Nation's claims, and the same treaty would FINALIZE those claims – the First Nation would get some of its land back, but would not be able to make future claims on more land.

As of 2019, this process has been officially abandoned by the BC NDP. Any treaties or agreements signed nowadays do not include finalization, so the First Nations are always free to demand more land, as they do.

Pretty much every First Nation consistently denies Canada's ownership of their lands, saying that their lands were stolen, that the colonialism continues today, that Canada has no right to govern their lands, that they should be the ones deciding what happens on their lands, etc. – you can take those as empty feel-good slogans, which would be disrespectful I think, or you can take them seriously, and look at the consequences of those claims, should the government or the courts grant them legitimacy (as they increasingly do).

As just one of many, many examples, from the same Squamish First Nation, from an article about a land parcel near Murrin park being returned to them [1]:

> "The history of land confiscation from the Squamish Nation going back to Confederation has always been one where our people and our leaders, going back to the founding of the nation, have articulated that we never surrendered our lands. It's all ours," said Khelsilem, also known as Dustin Rivers, a spokesperson for the [Squamish] Nation.

> "The Crown, through the province or the feds, claim jurisdiction over our lands. We contest that jurisdictional claim. And we continue to fight for the return of our lands back to our community. And we've been successful at that in a number of areas. And we'll continue to press that fight."

Again, you can disrespect him, and assume that he means something else than what he says, but I don't think that's wise.

> 90% of the land

Is it perhaps this high number that's unbelievable to you? Well, the Tsilqhot Supreme Court decision [2] awarded that First Nation 45% of their claimed traditional territory into aboriginal title. 45% isn't 100%, and aboriginal title isn't literally private property, but that Nation now makes the rules for who and how is allowed to access all that land, both for commercial activities and non-commercial recreational visitors, unbound by any equality or freedom of movement provisions in the Canadian law that normally bind Canadian governments.

And that decision is from nine years ago – an eternity when it comes to the development of indigenous rights in Canada and BC. If a similar case reached the court today, you bet it would be even stronger. Also, as I mentioned, the scope of aboriginal title is continually expanded by the courts, so eventually it will likely become indistinguishable from private property for all practical purposes.

> And even if some land is returned to indigenous nations, that would not be privatization.

You can use whatever PC words for this you want, if it makes you feel better. The essence remains the same – previously publicly owned land with public access is transferred into ownership with restricted access. There are many ways in which it is accomplished, from transferring land parcels into private property – sometimes in exchange for approving resource extraction projects, sometimes without any exchange, to signing various "joint management" agreements that enable First Nations to exclude non-indigenous people from large swaths of lands, give them veto rights on any commercial activity, etc.

> In much the same way that legally I have title to your house if i write “I own that house” on a piece of paper.

No, because nobody will honor your piece of paper, whereas pretty much everyone in Canada and in the world honors Canada's title to its land, whether they like it or not. See the other subthread for why that is.

[1] https://www.squamishchief.com/local-news/updated-squamish-na...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsilhqot%CA%BCin_Nation_v_Brit...

Re: Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the lack of organic place making is hard, but certainly not impossible. The example I listed suffered from insufficient place making (which one day may yet appear). The pedestrian and shopping areas are linearized instead of polycentric as you would see in an urban core limiting mobility and discovery of the local businesses that make an urban landscape thrive. Additionally a limited variety in offerings of r…

If the old city centers are crowded and expensive because they're so desirable, then why do we need any new solution? Can't we just copy paste the old stuff outward in every direction in concentric circles from the old downtown? I've never understood all the headscratching on this topic. Everyone likes charming little streets, plazas, coffee shops, locally owned restaurants. Just let people have it!

It really is! Americans like myself feel the magnetic energy of old European city centers yet we relegate them to vacation rather than import them here.

My only guess as to why developments don't achieve this is that the most desirable outcomes to society is that all stakeholder interests can't possibly be seen within a development plan. With that a more narrow band of priorities are emphasized and bureaucratic processes lead to a rationalized and simplified plans rather than the controlled chaos that incremental and democratic growth creates.

(in the same way a product manager may propose a box to be the product shape - if profitability and volume is prioritized, and the box shape is explainable to regulators and management. While if the product had been iterated through organic public reception, it will evolve to take an ergonomic shape formed and validated by users over years).

Re: Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous

#345
There's no amenities in that neighborhood besides a quiet 4 lane street with some burger places on it. The beach is close by but there's just not that much room to build stuff for all these people to do. It'll be a boring place to live. Vancouver's walkable but the nearest main area is a twenty minute walk up the hill in one way, or a twenty minute walk across a noisy bridge the other way. If you know Vancouver you know that a twenty minute walk to get anywhere is significant. Unrelated, but a mildly interesting tidbit is that this development will be across the street from Lululemon's headquarters.

Re: Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous

#346
post #247
post #120

It's comforting to see first nations of canada recovering a central role in modern canadian society. However, having lived here for a year a year now, I have observed a concerning aspect of this re-integration, which is mentioned in the article: First nations aren't just propped back up and re-integrated in society, it goes further in that they are given special rights that go beyond what any other class of canadian…

>"On moral grounds, I find it questionable to give some citizens special birth rights greater than others." They did not ask to be a citizens of Canada. They were invaded, conquered, killed and actively suppressed. Mistreatment still continues. How's that for moral grounds?

By that logic, neither did New Yorkers. New York was largely Loyalist during the American Revolution.

Re: Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous

#347
post #105

I say this all as a YIMBY who is very happy to see 20k new units added to vancouver: something feels off about the plans for the Jericho lands but I can't describe it. I feel like when you have these mega developments where 10 condos go up all at once in the space of a few blocks, they end up as "bedroom neighborhoods", where people sleep but don't do anything else. There are a lot of these happening in Canada right…

This honestly sounds pretty chill to me. Having residential neighborhoods that are quieter, but still close to downtown and accessible on public transit, seems like a great situation for me. Not everyone wants to live in the hustle and bustle of downtown.

Re: Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous

#348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re suggesting the 90% native Palestinian population previously stole the land

It is possible to have two thoughts in the head at the same time. The Palestinians living in this geographical area have a connection based on the history of their families living in the area. The Jewish people have a connection to the area based on the fact that most of their culture was founded in the area, but were later driven out as consequence of Roman and Byzantine actions – wars, enslavement, expulsions etc.…

I don't think the root of the problem is that. There are currently 10-12 million people with nowhere else to go. That's the root of the conflict. Most people don't care enough about "where" to get shot over it. They just want to raise their families in peace and Israel happens to be where politics landed them. Historically as refugees, and today as having been born there or escaping persecution or discrimination, or in seeking opportunity. Just like everywhere else in the world. The conflict is that a handful of assholes are set on war as a way of corporate profiteering on one side, or as an attack on Western ideology on the other. Everyone else just wants ANYWHERE to go live in peace. And no other country is going to let them move to there so they are staying put, and fighting, because they have to.

Re: Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous

#349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Expensive housing is almost entirely an Anglo nation problem. If you don't restrict infill development you won't have this issue.

Housing is extremely expensive in China as well. It’s one of the main barriers to Chinese yuppies having the three kids their government wants them to.

Isn't China having a real estate overproduction crisis right now? There can be different problems in different places, I mean, it's a big country, but that's mostly the opposite problem.

The hukou system also can't help - you can stop immigration to an expensive city but presumably you also stop emigration to a cheaper one.

Re: Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous

#350
post #120

It's comforting to see first nations of canada recovering a central role in modern canadian society. However, having lived here for a year a year now, I have observed a concerning aspect of this re-integration, which is mentioned in the article: First nations aren't just propped back up and re-integrated in society, it goes further in that they are given special rights that go beyond what any other class of canadian…

Part of the point of reconciliation is to accept unequivocally the sovereignty of indigenous peoples. Is it not morally questionable to ignore indigenous peoples' sovereign rights (over fishing, forests, lands, etc.) as we have been doing up until now?

Times have changed and these peoples don't live the romanticized lifestyles of the olden times anymore. For the most part, they're just as modern and profit-seeking as any other group of Canadians. If you allow them to not have to adhere to Canadian law, you have a group of people that enjoy all the benefits and none of the restrictions of the country they live in. If you argue for sovereign rights, they should have their own separate countries, so they have to deal with any imbalances or environmental issues they create themselves.
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