Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

blogmaverick.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

221–230 of 302 posts

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#221

Post by randomdata »

jmathai wrote: post #162
earl wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory, I agree. In practice, college is a very useful signal. And it's not just the coursework from the college major. College demonstrates a variety of soft skills: time management, the ability to plan and meet deadlines, the ability to work on what's necessary when it's necessary, a willingness to suck it up and do some unglamorous but necessary drudge work, etc. I've worked with a variety of people that haven'…

4 years and $50-100k of debt is in no way an efficient way to surface those signals. I agree that some things like research can't be done online. But I don't think those will remain at the university either. Graduate/research degrees must represent such a small % of a university's revenue that when the majority goes away they simply won't be able to survive. Just ask the RIAA if they can survive by selling mp3s when…

I agree that some things like research can't be done online.

I've heard this many times. Why is this? I get some research requires access to physical equipment that is out of reach of the common man, but it seems something like algorithmic research in the field of CS could often be done online.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#222

Post by saturdaysaint »

drone wrote: post #219

This general topic has been of a lot of discussion in my household lately. My partner, let's just say she's been pursuing a career in the arts (as a classical performer). Her and I both recognize that the median salary for people in her career path is around $38k/year. She has been conditioned to believe that no one can even attempt to get into her chosen career (many times more applicants than available positions, t…

You guys should look up the forums full of angry law and humanities grads with no job prospects and devastating debt - http://chronicle.com/article/The-Big-Lie-About-the-Life/6393...

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#223

Post by randomdata »

gaius wrote: post #190
toemetoch wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that education says nothing about being able to do the job in many cases. I work with students for development projects. We don't get to pick them, they pick the projects we propose. Here's a question that tells us in seconds whether we're going to have a tough project with a lot of pussyfooting or one that'll go mad with ideas: Do you have tech-related hobbies? Most barely have a few hobbies but some ar…

I wonder how many accountants, lawyers and doctors have "hobby" projects in their respective fields. And whether they get asked that in interviews.

Anecdotal, but the accountants I know all have side-businesses, which allows them to practice accounting in a hobby context.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#224

Post by sp332 »

gavanwoolery wrote: post #112
jellicle wrote: post #43

Mark Cuban writes: "As an employer I want the best prepared and qualified employees. I could care less if the source of their education was accredited by a bunch of old men and women who think they know what is best for the world. I want people who can do the job. I want the best and brightest. Not a piece of paper." So, I suppose I could be wrong, but I would be willing to bet a great deal of money that Mark Cuban d…

False. Many of the Mavericks players do not have college degrees.

Mavericks players are not in white collar jobs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-collar_worker

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#225

Post by drone »

saturdaysaint wrote: post #222
drone wrote: post #219

This general topic has been of a lot of discussion in my household lately. My partner, let's just say she's been pursuing a career in the arts (as a classical performer). Her and I both recognize that the median salary for people in her career path is around $38k/year. She has been conditioned to believe that no one can even attempt to get into her chosen career (many times more applicants than available positions, t…

You guys should look up the forums full of angry law and humanities grads with no job prospects and devastating debt - http://chronicle.com/article/The-Big-Lie-About-the-Life/6393...

The sad part is, she has plenty of real-world examples around her. Her part time job singing is also staffed with people who got their grad degree, who barely get by on a few part time private teaching jobs and the few part time singing jobs. She watches them struggle to even pay their loans, but the story keeps being told "But it may be that they're just not as good as you."

Part of it, I suspect, is that especially in music, they start training and teaching kids when they're very young. This is all they know by the time they leave their undergrad studies, and accepting the idea that the path they've been on their entire life may not be viable sounds a lot like "giving up before the race is over." Rational arguments be damned.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#226

Post by anamax »

glesica wrote: post #136
anamax wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet for-profit colleges are actually the biggest culprits driving up the student debt. Students at for-profit colleges run up more debt, are more likely to drop out, and are more likely to end up under-employed than those at traditional universities. They're also the people that traditional universities don't admit for the most part. We can find a subset of students at traditional universities who are like the stud…

I think that's an excellent and important point. Certainly there is some sample bias going on: if you're qualified for college in the first place you are probably at a traditional college. However, I think my original point remains relevant for two reasons: First, the author of the article used rising aggregate debt as evidence that the traditional college system is broken beyond repair. But if a significant portion…

> Second, the author presented for-profit higher education as a replacement for traditional higher education.

So the question is "what would for-profit schools do with university-qualified students?"

> But the incentives faced by for-profit colleges seem every bit as broken as those he claimed are faced by traditional colleges.

Your description of the incentives and behavior seems very facile.

For one, the cost of traditional colleges is not driven by "grow endowments" and "build grand edifices".

They also operate in very different environments. Traditional universities have significant govt support and enjoy a great deal of deference.

Meanwhile, when GM produces crappy cars, folks jump to Toyota. (Yes, as with GM, we're going to end up bailing out the employees at traditional universities.)

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#227

Post by gaius »

jeffbarr wrote: post #163
toemetoch wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that education says nothing about being able to do the job in many cases. I work with students for development projects. We don't get to pick them, they pick the projects we propose. Here's a question that tells us in seconds whether we're going to have a tough project with a lot of pussyfooting or one that'll go mad with ideas: Do you have tech-related hobbies? Most barely have a few hobbies but some ar…

Agreed! You want to find the people who care enough about technology (of whatever type) to invest their own time and resources in it. I've met too many so-called professionals who see development as their job, and see no reason whatsoever to do it for recreation. The only "no" answer that I ever respected in this regard was "Hobbies? I am working two jobs to get through school. I have no time to do anything but work…

Not agreed. Professional means you do it for money! Again I ask, how many professional doctors do surgery after hours at home for fun? Not many...

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#228

Post by EzGraphs »

The typical university tuition is over-priced. Once can get employable credentials or education with much less of an investment. That said, a comparison with the housing market does not provide a particularly clear parallel of the dynamics involved.

* In the housing market, there were a significant number of investors speculating and "flipping" properties. A major difference with college degrees is that they have a single owner.

* A brand new pool of college applicants becomes available each year. Based upon borrowing practices and selection of majors, they for the most part appear unaware of the consequences of the expense. The initial four-year degree is generally only acquired once per buyer.

* A house could be sold or re-possessed to immediately recapture some of its value. There is no way to resell a degree to effectively withdraw a portion of its cash value.

The common factor that will have a more immediate effect is the availability of government loans. If there would be a "credit crisis" for education that would result in student loans becoming more scarce, the resulting reduction in demand could lead to something of a "bubble burst" scenario.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#229

Post by jamesrcole »

krschultz wrote: post #215
mkramlich wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fuck college. It's not the only way to learn, to meet people, or to show your expertise, capabilities and accomplishments anymore. We have this thing called the Internet now. Write a book. Put a PDF online. Record a video of yourself giving an intelligent speech or showing some useful talent. Put it on YouTube. Write software. Put on GitHub. Answer technical questions well on StackExchange (or whatever for your parti…

Fuck people who bitch about how expensive college is. You know how much I paid for college? $0. You know why I paid that? Because in high school I did a lot less than what you outlined above, but it was enough to get a scholarship to go to college. Six great schools looked at my application and offered me somewhere between a discounted rate and a full ride + stipend on top of that. And I was only 20th in my high scho…

There's a limited number of scholarships to go around, and for those who can't get one, the cost will matter.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#230

Post by crazygringo »

I would love to see some kind of "university achievement test" that you could take at the end of college, or at the end of simply studying on your own.

A test that would actually evaluate real critical reasoning and analysis of the sort that you're "supposed to" develop at university. (Of course, writing such a test well would be extremely difficult, and it would probably have to have a different version tailored for each kind of major.)

But it could serve two purposes: first, it could allow intelligent and driven students to bypass college completely, but still have something that will give them equivalent respect from employers.

But secondly, it could also reveal that many colleges aren't providing educations worth anywhere near what they're charging, and thus either drive prices down, or else force them to raise their standards.

Post reply on HN