The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon • Hacker News Board

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#211

Post by maxerickson » Mon, May 14, 2012, 2:23 PM UTC

indiecore wrote: post #198

lordlicorice wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At research universities most of the budget comes from research, and most of the work in research gets done by grad students. Undergrad programs are an afterthought.

Well undergraduate programs are a thought in that they are needed to produce candidates for the graduate programs that provide value. And from what I can see most of the budget comes from and is devoted to college football.

I bet if you broke it down you would find that most research dollars are spent at schools with highly visible sports teams that are self funding.

I believe this mostly because the big conferences have fantastic TV deals and huge research schools.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#212

Post by [deleted] » Mon, May 14, 2012, 2:24 PM UTC

earl wrote: post #154

mkramlich wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fuck college. It's not the only way to learn, to meet people, or to show your expertise, capabilities and accomplishments anymore. We have this thing called the Internet now. Write a book. Put a PDF online. Record a video of yourself giving an intelligent speech or showing some useful talent. Put it on YouTube. Write software. Put on GitHub. Answer technical questions well on StackExchange (or whatever for your parti…

In theory, I agree. In practice, college is a very useful signal. And it's not just the coursework from the college major. College demonstrates a variety of soft skills: time management, the ability to plan and meet deadlines, the ability to work on what's necessary when it's necessary, a willingness to suck it up and do some unglamorous but necessary drudge work, etc. I've worked with a variety of people that haven'…

[deleted]

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#213

Post by debacle » Mon, May 14, 2012, 2:24 PM UTC

dasil003 wrote: post #165

ArmstrongRSBC wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost of a college education is an overstatement of its value. How many recent grads outside of engineering do you know? Now how many of them are gainfully employed? Now how much did they pay for school and how much pay and experience did they miss out on by not working for the time they were in school? I just went through the post graduate job cycle along with a huge batch of my peers and any of us will be the fi…

That's not exactly true. On average with the current unemployment I think you are correct, but the value of an ivy league degree is still many multiples its cost because it gets into the good ol' boys club.

Most people do not graduate with an Ive League degree.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#214

Post by davemel37 » Mon, May 14, 2012, 2:24 PM UTC

earl wrote: post #154

mkramlich wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fuck college. It's not the only way to learn, to meet people, or to show your expertise, capabilities and accomplishments anymore. We have this thing called the Internet now. Write a book. Put a PDF online. Record a video of yourself giving an intelligent speech or showing some useful talent. Put it on YouTube. Write software. Put on GitHub. Answer technical questions well on StackExchange (or whatever for your parti…

In theory, I agree. In practice, college is a very useful signal. And it's not just the coursework from the college major. College demonstrates a variety of soft skills: time management, the ability to plan and meet deadlines, the ability to work on what's necessary when it's necessary, a willingness to suck it up and do some unglamorous but necessary drudge work, etc. I've worked with a variety of people that haven'…

College as an indicator is like using price as a deciding factor for a non-commodity purchase. It is a shortcut and excuse not to actually think, and do a little work to make the right decision. (Or you just resent the fact that you racked up all that student debt, and feel like others should struggle the same way you do/did.)

Probably the most under-utilized, under-rated, and under-appreciated working class in America is students that either never graduated with an Accredited Degree due to religious school that was unaccredited, or couldn't afford college, or saw through the self-serving system that systematically rejects talent and attracts "Yes-Men."

"we don't need no education. We don't need no thought control." - Christopher Columbus said that, and he discovered America (or something like that, I wouldn't know, I never graduated college.)

My point is, I grew up reading books, I was raised in home that taught me to treat people respectfully, work hard, and focus my effort on personal development. I might not be perfect, but I don't need a piece of paper to prove my worth. Especially to someone who dismissively rejects people due to systematic and flawed reasoning, just because it makes their lives a little easier.

News Flash Dude, if you are a recruiter, you are playing with peoples lives. Try to take it a little more seriously, and you will see, like everything else in life... You get what you put into it. (I didn't learn that in college either.)

I know how it feels when enterprise companies reach out to you, recruit you, interview you and than ask, "Where did you get your degree from? From yeshiva? what's that? Oh, you learn about G-d and Stuff? actually it is mostly business and contract law? Yup, Yeshiva students spend 14 hours a day studying partnerships, responsibilities in business, and the different types of business relationships...But they are unemployable at public companies because they can't get "a bunch of old white people to accredit them." (Truth is, some yeshivos are accredited, and I did attend some college, but my point is that Mark Cuban is dead on with this post.)

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#215

Post by krschultz » Mon, May 14, 2012, 2:28 PM UTC

mkramlich wrote: post #104

jellicle wrote: post #43

Mark Cuban writes: "As an employer I want the best prepared and qualified employees. I could care less if the source of their education was accredited by a bunch of old men and women who think they know what is best for the world. I want people who can do the job. I want the best and brightest. Not a piece of paper." So, I suppose I could be wrong, but I would be willing to bet a great deal of money that Mark Cuban d…

Fuck college. It's not the only way to learn, to meet people, or to show your expertise, capabilities and accomplishments anymore. We have this thing called the Internet now. Write a book. Put a PDF online. Record a video of yourself giving an intelligent speech or showing some useful talent. Put it on YouTube. Write software. Put on GitHub. Answer technical questions well on StackExchange (or whatever for your parti…

Fuck people who bitch about how expensive college is.

You know how much I paid for college? $0.

You know why I paid that? Because in high school I did a lot less than what you outlined above, but it was enough to get a scholarship to go to college. Six great schools looked at my application and offered me somewhere between a discounted rate and a full ride + stipend on top of that. And I was only 20th in my high school class by GPA rank.

If you think that you can match a college degree based solely on self-guided learning, then you should be smart enough to get a scholarship. It's the same damn process. You need the self discipline to stick with a program of learning and working, and you need the intelligence to learn without support. It's just a question of whether you realize that in high school or later in life.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#216

Post by mfieldhouse » Mon, May 14, 2012, 2:32 PM UTC

Every time I see a discussion about university education, the wrong question is always being asked and debated: "Do you really need degree X for job Y?".

Of course domain specific knowledge and further education is a good idea. The 3 questions that need to be asked are:

1: Is it relevant to the job? 2: Could the material be learned quicker and more in depth working on the job instead? 3: Is university overpriced?

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#217

Post by randomdata » Mon, May 14, 2012, 2:37 PM UTC

tikhonj wrote: post #142

vladd wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google seems to be able to figure out smart folks in 5-6 hours with pretty high accuracy.

Isn't Google also notorious for being biased towards the "top" schools, caring about GPAs and turning away a ton of smart people? That's what I've heard, but I've no first-hand experience. So many smart people apply to Google that they could (at least historically--maybe it's different now) get away with a hiring process optimized for false negatives over false positives. This is only fair, but also probably makes th…

Isn't Google also notorious for being biased towards the "top" schools

They were in the early days, but it doesn't seem to matter anymore. Some regular posters to HN are Google employees void of any college degrees. The change indicates to me that their attempts to filter by education was failing them, which is interesting in itself.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#218

Post by krschultz » Mon, May 14, 2012, 2:45 PM UTC

robomartin wrote: post #115

During the early part of my working life I had the experience of not getting a job due to the fact that I did not have a degree. It was a junior embedded programming job. I was 19 and just getting going with the college thing. The guy that got the job had a degree in landscaping and had taught himself some programming with an 8085 board that was popular at the time. I know because the owner of the joint was kind enou…

Sadly, it's never too late for it to backfire onm you. Although it has 'worked out ok' up to this point, I had a neighbor who was 58, and in 2008 when the company did a round of layouts, they fired him because he was the only guy in the department without a degree. They had to pick someone 'objectively', and that was their criteria.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#219

Post by drone » Mon, May 14, 2012, 2:50 PM UTC

This general topic has been of a lot of discussion in my household lately. My partner, let's just say she's been pursuing a career in the arts (as a classical performer). Her and I both recognize that the median salary for people in her career path is around $38k/year. She has been conditioned to believe that no one can even attempt to get into her chosen career (many times more applicants than available positions, to use the terms loosely) without a master's degree from one of the top schools, and again through one of the top studios in one of the top schools.

The problem here is that once she was accepted, we did the math. We'd be taking on an additional $60k in debt for this two year program, in addition to the existing $40k in debt already accrued. That makes a total of $100k in debt, at an average interest rate of 3.5%. All, for the "opportunity" to get a $38k/year job.

Even though she recognizes that the financials simply don't work, she has a hard time with the concept, and still is looking for ways that we could afford it. I've been working hard with her to show her different paths into the market (using more standard entrepreneurial tactics: building a team, creating opportunity one step at a time, building a market for your "product" over several years, etc.) but the professors keep telling her she can't get the job without the additional degree.

Sometimes, I wonder if the professors are not simply selling themselves and "capturing" their market. Then again, I consider they're likely not being manipulative, they simply only know the paths they took...

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#220

Post by saturdaysaint » Mon, May 14, 2012, 2:51 PM UTC

jmathai wrote: post #162

earl wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory, I agree. In practice, college is a very useful signal. And it's not just the coursework from the college major. College demonstrates a variety of soft skills: time management, the ability to plan and meet deadlines, the ability to work on what's necessary when it's necessary, a willingness to suck it up and do some unglamorous but necessary drudge work, etc. I've worked with a variety of people that haven'…

4 years and $50-100k of debt is in no way an efficient way to surface those signals. I agree that some things like research can't be done online. But I don't think those will remain at the university either. Graduate/research degrees must represent such a small % of a university's revenue that when the majority goes away they simply won't be able to survive. Just ask the RIAA if they can survive by selling mp3s when…

"4 years and $50-100k of debt is in no way an efficient way to surface those signals."

This seems intuitively true - 4 yrs/50-100k looks like an unjustifiable expense - but efficiency is relative. If we don't have another way of systematically vetting knowledge workers, then talk of efficiency is moot. There's room for improvement/disruption, but the parent's response to the gp's "fuck college" sentiment was well measured and in keeping with the sentiment of the linked article.