Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous • Hacker News Board

Re: Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous

#181

Post by TSiege » Thu, Mar 14, 2024, 9:36 PM UTC

extr wrote: post #167

elevaet wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be true, but fundamentally this is about autonomy. These Nations do not necessarily fall under the jurisdiction of the National or Provincial government since they never ceeded their territory. It's a bit of a grey area for sure, but this isn't about "giving the people of the forest" stewardship of the land in order for them to protect it, it's recognizing that they didn't sign up to be governed under the na…

The idea that they do not fall under jusrisdiction is a farce and legal contrivance. In reality they have no international standing and do not and would not constitute an independent state under any normal criteria. What's happening here is the government is treating them with kid gloves because there is the perception what happened in the past is unfair (true!) and there is a desire to make amends for it. That's all…

It doesn't matter if they don't have international standing, what matters is that Canada has recognized them as sovereign entities. You can't be sovereign but then be boxed into the laws of another country

Re: Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous

#182

Post by BigParm » Thu, Mar 14, 2024, 9:39 PM UTC

stonogo wrote: post #127

ximus wrote: post #120

It's comforting to see first nations of canada recovering a central role in modern canadian society. However, having lived here for a year a year now, I have observed a concerning aspect of this re-integration, which is mentioned in the article: First nations aren't just propped back up and re-integrated in society, it goes further in that they are given special rights that go beyond what any other class of canadian…

> On moral grounds, I find it questionable to give some citizens special birth rights greater than others. Kind of the point here is that it was happening the other way for a couple hundred years, so just abrogating current inequality still leaves one party as a disadvantage. The hard part is deciding when these catch-up priveleges have run their course. Since first nations metrics along the lines of economic status…

When the catch up is in the form of hiring quotas for a mining project on native lands, that’s just a consensual business deal and it’s positive.

But sometimes the situation is taken advantage of and the appeasement goes too far. Like instead of cutting firewood for the wood stove, you just throw all your furniture and cabinetry and doors in there. Then you just ask for new ones from a big company who just wants to quietly put this problem away without stirring up a fuss and risking their project or bigger costs later. That actually happened lol.

It’s not a race issue or a cultural issue. Natives are competent people. We may have different ancestral traditions, but we share exactly the same culture today. Where do you think the Canadian accent comes from? That’s a native accent. Our cultures mixed together.

If a business and a land owning band want to cut a deal, by all means. If the government and the bands want to settle land compensation, then settle it once and for all. It really just never ends as it stands. Like what does free post secondary have to do with land claims? It really looks like systemic racism.

And if the government was serious about any of this they’d give them autonomy in their lands. Statehood. That hasn’t happened. Why not? I get that you can’t sign over Vancouver because it’s been developed, but a lot of these places are in the bush.

It’s really a shit show. We’re not the rich country we once were. We can’t afford to pay billions forever on repeat just to make it go away for a little while. Settle it all immediately and make all races equal.

Re: Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous

#183

Post by thorncorona » Thu, Mar 14, 2024, 9:39 PM UTC

nightowl_games wrote: post #172

Tiktaalik wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they are given special rights that go beyond what any other class of canadian citizens have access to > I find it questionable to give some citizens special birth rights greater than others The reason for this is because they are using their rights from signed treaties that define how resources are used on their lands. Persons that are part of First Nations like the Squamish and the Haida are not just "some citizen…

> power over lands that they never legally ceded to British Columbia or Canada. Actually curious about this concept of "unceded land". If it's not Canada's land then can I come in there and break laws and say Canadian law doesn't apply because it's not Canada? Seems like this "unceded land" concept is only applied selectively?

Do you have historical treaties which apply to you, and exempt you from those laws?

Re: Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous

#184

Post by guyzero » Thu, Mar 14, 2024, 9:41 PM UTC

systemstops wrote: post #95

fckgw wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does acceptable use of their own land look like to you? What would meet your specific approval?

It's acceptable to me - none of my business. But it's corporate money building this project, which we should be clear about. It's just built on native land.

"Corporate money" builds everything - that's how capitalism works.

Re: Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous

#185

Post by wahnfrieden » Thu, Mar 14, 2024, 9:42 PM UTC

crtified wrote: post #180

nightowl_games wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> power over lands that they never legally ceded to British Columbia or Canada. Actually curious about this concept of "unceded land". If it's not Canada's land then can I come in there and break laws and say Canadian law doesn't apply because it's not Canada? Seems like this "unceded land" concept is only applied selectively?

If 2 families solely inhabited (owned) an island, since pre-history, and Family 1 sells the entire island to newcomers, while Family 2 takes no part in the deal or its approval, and does not cede their land to the purchase, then any court in the land will, quite rightly, hear Family 2's case that they are still the owner of their regions of the island. Why would that be different here?

See the Louisiana Purchase for instance. Or the founding of Israel by Britain.

Re: Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous

#186

Post by InitialLastName » Thu, Mar 14, 2024, 9:43 PM UTC

TSiege wrote: post #176

gotoeleven wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can this work in practice, though? Wouldn't acknowledging indigenous peoples' sovereign rights over their lands require the formation of entirely new nations with their own borders and laws and military and courts etc etc that would cover the entirety of canada ? If they are have the right of a sovereign over these lands then can't they just tell everyone else to leave?

This is essentially what we do in the United States. I've yet to see any problems from it. This is also why laws and treaties exist. How do you think the rest of the world works with multiple nation states close to one another? My counter question would be, would it be fair to give peoples land that first belonged to them as well as independence and then tell them what they can or can't do with that land? That would…

> that would cover the entirety of canada

This is very much not what we do in the United States.

Rather, we forcibly uprooted, exterminated, and/or migrated indigenous people until they only occupied the most marginal land available, and then told them "here's your bit".

Re: Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous

#187

Post by Tiktaalik » Thu, Mar 14, 2024, 9:47 PM UTC

nikitaga wrote: post #164

Tiktaalik wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no real special catch up going on here. What is happening now is that First Nations have leveraged the courts to force a rule of law country like Canada to actually follow through on obeying the rule of law and following through with treaties they had signed and agreements they had made.

What treaties? BC signed very few treaties, unlike other provinces. That's why those lawsuits are even considered. We can thank a bunch of long-dead British guys for that. And let's not pretend that this has anything to do with the constitution or the rule of law. The actual "rules" in the source material are woefully under-specified and open to all kinds of interpretation, so the number one factor actually affecting…

The situation in BC yeah largely without treaties gives the First Nations even more leverage to control their lands under claim because otherwise Canada has to somehow justify being a rule of law country and also stealing people's land in the year 2024.

Obviously it's not going to work, which is why the courts continue to rule in the favour of BC FNs.

Re: Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous

#188

Post by skrbjc » Thu, Mar 14, 2024, 9:47 PM UTC

dangus wrote: post #71

The critics of this project seem to be outright racist. I don’t think that’s an overstatement. They’re basically saying that Indigenous people aren’t allowed to participate in the modern world. You’re not allowed to be urbanist if you were “less advanced than the white people” three hundred years ago. And they’re butthurt about the development not having the need to comply with Vancouver development rules. Yeah, well…

How would you feel if they decided to turn it into a landfill or a nuclear powerplant or a massive chemical production facility that didn't have to comply with environmental laws.

It's great they want to build big buildings, but the reality is if you say a group of people are above the law, then they can do whatever they want, including things that would be solely in their interest and in no-one else's.

Re: Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous

#189

Post by Izikiel43 » Thu, Mar 14, 2024, 9:52 PM UTC

spxneo wrote: post #102

camg55 wrote: post #90

Think this is great for Vancouver which needs more housing. The zoning is broken, and far too conservative. Glad to see the Squamish addressing a need that will likely benefit all, and hopefully this encourages the city of Vancouver to do the same on their own accord.

Building more homes in Vancouver will not result in lower prices because this is not a supply problem it is the financial assetization of home equity that drives higher and higher prices. Blue collar workers turned multi-millionaires rely on the continued rise of home prices to purchase cheap credit which they use to speculate on more homes. When they couldn't find anymore locals they turned to the international mark…

Houses there are a luxury, you would need to be a multimillionaire to buy something there. Also, most of Vancouver is zoned for sfh, check a zoning map. Your entire comment can be summarized as: Build buildings-> more rentals -> lower price -> lower income can afford it -> poor people are criminals.

I lived there for 2 years, and a local tech salary was barely enough to afford living in downtown/near downtown renting an apartment.

Re: Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous

#190

Post by skrbjc » Thu, Mar 14, 2024, 9:53 PM UTC

onlypassingthru wrote: post #52

api wrote: post #48

Let me see if I got this. 1. Settlers colonize indigenous lands, drive indigenous people into small parcels and reservations and try to exterminate their culture. 2. Settlers decide to start refusing to build enough housing for themselves because they don’t want to alter the “character of the neighborhood” after… uhh… very much doing that. 3. Indigenous people build housing on their remaining bits of land for settler…

The Bay Area indigenous land movement is finally starting to see some wins. Shellmound in Berkeley is a big win for the Ohlone tribe. [0] [0] https://www.berkeleyside.org/2024/03/12/berkeley-shellmound-...

So developer wants to build on land they legally own, indigenous complain and get the city to block development and then to use tax-payer dollars to help them buy it, and then they will turn around and develop it themselves?

Is this not just blatant extortion?