Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous

macleans.ca

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 362 posts

Re: Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous

#141

Post by karaterobot »

systemstops wrote: post #92

Someone at Westbank is a genius: fund the building of a massive skyscraper project on land that was recently returned to indigenous tribes because of a lawsuit, a project that would never be normally approved because of zoning laws. Then, declare any criticism of the project as racist, thus guaranteeing it will be built. I wonder how much of the money the tribe is actually getting out of this?

You're being downvoted, but people should look at this through the lens of it being a massive real estate deal rather than as a civil rights issue, which it is not. Of course there's shady stuff going on if you scratch the surface, didn't you see the part where real estate developers are involved? Unless we're making the laughable (and patronizing) assumption that massive urban residential real estate deals are vaccinated from corruption if first nation tribal members are involved.

Re: Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous

#142

Post by smallmancontrov »

stonogo wrote: post #127
ximus wrote: post #120

It's comforting to see first nations of canada recovering a central role in modern canadian society. However, having lived here for a year a year now, I have observed a concerning aspect of this re-integration, which is mentioned in the article: First nations aren't just propped back up and re-integrated in society, it goes further in that they are given special rights that go beyond what any other class of canadian…

> On moral grounds, I find it questionable to give some citizens special birth rights greater than others. Kind of the point here is that it was happening the other way for a couple hundred years, so just abrogating current inequality still leaves one party as a disadvantage. The hard part is deciding when these catch-up priveleges have run their course. Since first nations metrics along the lines of economic status…

So why not run programs along the lines of current economic status, which is relatively easy to objectively determine and relatively light on ethnic, racial, and national animus? It is impossible to do a good job of litigating history and it is guaranteed to make people hate each other.

Re: Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous

#143

Post by systemstops »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #122
systemstops wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that the public is being manipulated by the moral framing of this project. The buildings would not be normally allowed in that area, and the proponents of project are using an explicit racial justice narrative to counteract criticism of their violation of norms. I'm agnostic about whether or not the project is good idea, but I think it's generally bad to manipulate people in…

> the proponents of project are using an explicit racial justice narrative to counteract criticism of their violation of norms. Pretty easy to do when some of the criticism indeed sounds kinda racist. Example from the article: > In 2022, Gordon Price, a prominent Vancouver urban planner and a former city councillor, told Gitxsan reporter Angela Sterritt, “When you’re building 30, 40-storey high rises out of concrete,…

It seems like he's expressing criticism over the racial narrative that this is an "indigenous way of being" building project instead of another corporate development that happens to be built on indigenous land.

Obviously, no one is expecting indigenous people to use ancient building techniques that haven't been used in centuries, but the groups behind the project are making the explicit claim that the project is somehow tied to a racial identity. Criticizing their claim is perfectly reasonable.

Re: Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous

#144

Post by vkou »

curmudgeon22 wrote: post #110
lwansbrough wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In terms of land/home ownership, what it has meant in other parts of the metro area, is leaseholds. You can “buy” a property at a slightly reduced cost which will be reclaimed after several decades (100 years?), usually starting from the time of development. In terms of laws, policing is handled by the local police force, ie. VPD. While there is rhetoric about sovereignty, practically speaking much of the challenging…

These leaseholds are typically more difficult to get a mortgage on, restricting lenders and increasing price :/

If it's difficult to get a mortgage, it should cause prices to drop.

Easy access to zero-interest-rate borrowed money is one of many things that drives prices up.

Re: Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous

#145

Post by Tiktaalik »

ximus wrote: post #120

It's comforting to see first nations of canada recovering a central role in modern canadian society. However, having lived here for a year a year now, I have observed a concerning aspect of this re-integration, which is mentioned in the article: First nations aren't just propped back up and re-integrated in society, it goes further in that they are given special rights that go beyond what any other class of canadian…

> they are given special rights that go beyond what any other class of canadian citizens have access to > I find it questionable to give some citizens special birth rights greater than others

The reason for this is because they are using their rights from signed treaties that define how resources are used on their lands.

Persons that are part of First Nations like the Squamish and the Haida are not just "some citizens" of Canada but rather part of Nations that have their own governance and jurisdiction. Nations that have signed government to government treaties with Canada that clearly define their rights and jurisdiction.

And in many cases in BC in particular, treaties were never signed, and First Nations never ceded their lands and title, so in fact there is an enormously strong legal case to justify their influence and power over lands that they never legally ceded to British Columbia or Canada. These First Nations continue to rack up wins in the courts that continue to side with the FNs that their title to their lands has never been extinguished.

Re: Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous

#146

Post by Tiktaalik »

stonogo wrote: post #127
ximus wrote: post #120

It's comforting to see first nations of canada recovering a central role in modern canadian society. However, having lived here for a year a year now, I have observed a concerning aspect of this re-integration, which is mentioned in the article: First nations aren't just propped back up and re-integrated in society, it goes further in that they are given special rights that go beyond what any other class of canadian…

> On moral grounds, I find it questionable to give some citizens special birth rights greater than others. Kind of the point here is that it was happening the other way for a couple hundred years, so just abrogating current inequality still leaves one party as a disadvantage. The hard part is deciding when these catch-up priveleges have run their course. Since first nations metrics along the lines of economic status…

There is no real special catch up going on here.

What is happening now is that First Nations have leveraged the courts to force a rule of law country like Canada to actually follow through on obeying the rule of law and following through with treaties they had signed and agreements they had made.

Re: Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous

#147

Post by selectodude »

chasebank wrote: post #98
mjr00 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This development is being built on the waterfront across False Creek from downtown; it is prime real estate. Given that + being brand new, units will sell far above the Vancouver average. As a guess, studio units in this complex will start at 750k, 1 beds at 1m and 2beds at 1.5m. Maybe higher.

Most people on HN always repeat the sentiment that if you build more housing, prices will fall. I think you're right, these will sell for far above average. We don't have a housing shortage problem, we have a housing turned into a financialized asset problem.

It’s an asset due to its scarcity. If you remove the scarcity, it won’t be an asset. Financial asset managers buy real estate because they trust that silly people who think the demand for real estate is infinite will block new development allowing them to make money.

Re: Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous

#148

Post by giraffe_lady »

brink wrote: post #116
krapp wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No there isn't, any more than there's irony in white people not building thatch-roofed huts. Every culture evolves over time.

Not people's perceptions of said cultures. Africa is over 62% Christian as it stands today, and yet the Wakandans of hollywood practice ancestor worship (representing ~2% of Africa). There's irony wherever you look. We can't seem to move past the past when it comes to minorities.

A lot of christians, maybe most globally, also practice veneration of the dead. Sometimes syncretically, but also from an external anthropological viewpoint the communion of saints is indistinguishable from ancestor worship. The christian theological understanding of it is very different, which is probably why we don't use this term for it. But's it's there.

Re: Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous

#149

Post by Tiktaalik »

Erikun wrote: post #7

It’s a pretty interesting development. I wonder what the legal framework for someone living there will be if they’re not a First Nation citizen? From the article: “ But Indigenous nations are accountable, first and foremost, to their own citizens. That could mean temporarily barring access to traditional lands, as in Joffre Lakes. It could also mean maximizing the economic potential of their property, to provide hous…

The Squamish have said that they're going to align with the Provincial tenancy act, presumably to give certainty to renters.

> Tenants moving into any of these properties will be protected by the BCRTA as they would in any other rental property in the province.

https://www.squamish.net/bcrta-adoption/

Re: Vancouver’s new mega-development is big, ambitious and Indigenous

#150

Post by yardie »

systemstops wrote: post #92

Someone at Westbank is a genius: fund the building of a massive skyscraper project on land that was recently returned to indigenous tribes because of a lawsuit, a project that would never be normally approved because of zoning laws. Then, declare any criticism of the project as racist, thus guaranteeing it will be built. I wonder how much of the money the tribe is actually getting out of this?

I mean some of the opponents have been obtusely racist in their criticism. One example is imploring the tribes to use "traditional" indigenous building techniques. As if that is supposed to mean they should be building as if they were in the 19th century.
Post reply on HN