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Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

greglukianoff.substack.com

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Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#61

Post by cauch »

SamPatt wrote: post #52
cauch wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may be wrong, but from what I've seen, the majority of "prevention of other people from speaking" is done to people who are not really constructive and muddy the water. The article mention Milo Yiannopolous, for example. If you look at the person, it is quite clear that his contribution will not help learning anything, just spreading cliché and create polarisation that will both destroy intelligent debate and possi…

Saying they aren't constructive and muddy the water implies there's some clear shared goals / values and an understanding of acceptable paths towards those goals / values. Isn't part of the point of controversial speakers that they're challenging that our goals and values are fully shared? It sounds like the speech is being judged before it's given. Maybe for speakers who have explicitly called for violence, this wou…

But would you say someone who says "I call for violence against pedophiles" deserves to be more deplatformed than someone who says "hm, I've heard that vaccine is linked to autism, just google it (and avoid classic media, they are all in the conspiracy anyway), and based on that take the correct decision for your children (knowing it will impact all the other children at school too)"?

Not saying you are wrong, I just think it's way more subtle than what you present.

(and I'm certainly not saying violence against pedophiles is the solution, just that it feels the consequences on the society seems way less bad than the second one)

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#62

Post by hotdogscout »

woooooo wrote: post #58
hotdogscout wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a loaded question and I can't see how it's related. A victim of Maoist violence was deplatformed by socialist students. Do victims of socialist governments represent such an abhorrent ideology?

I'm honestly asking what you're talking about, the people mentioned in grandparent comment are american conservative personalities who as far as I know have never been publicly beaten, displayed in a cage and forced to self-criticize.

I was talking about "and the 2023 Whitworth University disinvitation of Xi Van Fleet, a Chinese dissident who grew up during Mao’s Cultural Revolution."

The comment claimed only the most vile ideas get deplatformed and a lot of the examples in that article cite people that are not vile but inconvenient to the left.

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#63

Post by SamPatt »

cauch wrote: post #61
SamPatt wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying they aren't constructive and muddy the water implies there's some clear shared goals / values and an understanding of acceptable paths towards those goals / values. Isn't part of the point of controversial speakers that they're challenging that our goals and values are fully shared? It sounds like the speech is being judged before it's given. Maybe for speakers who have explicitly called for violence, this wou…

But would you say someone who says "I call for violence against pedophiles" deserves to be more deplatformed than someone who says "hm, I've heard that vaccine is linked to autism, just google it (and avoid classic media, they are all in the conspiracy anyway), and based on that take the correct decision for your children (knowing it will impact all the other children at school too)"? Not saying you are wrong, I just…

Yes, the call for violence is more deserving of censorship.

It's not about trying to make a net utilitarian estimate of how much harm each claim might make. It's about the acceptability of the behaviors proposed.

We may not like the idea of people choosing different medical treatments than we'd choose, but that's their right. Even if it's a foolish behavior to reject modern science, they can choose foolishness.

They cannot choose to employ violence against X group. Even if we'd agree it could improve society in some way, it's absurdly dangerous - who decides when someone is a part of X, etc?

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#64

Post by hotdogscout »

cauch wrote: post #48
hotdogscout wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

different spaces have different harassment problems. Academia can have an extreme concentration of leftist dogmatism while political society can have a far right one. Both can happen at the same time in different communities.

I'm not sure how it answer to what I say. What I've said is that: 1) the majority of attempts are not successful, so "yet it can consistently expel people from it for disagreeing" is just incorrect, so there is no paradox. 2) the people organising or allowing the events in the first place are the one in charge. If indeed the "complainers" are in charge, how is that possible that the event got the initial green light,…

>1

I'll need to look at data on that before conceding or disagreeing. (Not your job I'll look later)

>the people organising or allowing the events in the first place are the one in charge

How come? If I go to a town square to speak and I get lynched, am I the one in power because I organized my speech?

You're extrapolating a lot of power from being able to allocate time in a anphitheater from the University.

>3

Sure but it's been some years since leftism has been the worst offender when it comes to harassment in universities. I very much am against when it is the right doing the harassment (Dylan Mulvaney comes to mind).

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#65

Post by woooooo »

hotdogscout wrote: post #62
woooooo wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm honestly asking what you're talking about, the people mentioned in grandparent comment are american conservative personalities who as far as I know have never been publicly beaten, displayed in a cage and forced to self-criticize.

I was talking about "and the 2023 Whitworth University disinvitation of Xi Van Fleet, a Chinese dissident who grew up during Mao’s Cultural Revolution." The comment claimed only the most vile ideas get deplatformed and a lot of the examples in that article cite people that are not vile but inconvenient to the left.

Hadn't heard of her. Apparently she wrote a book called "Mao's America".

Anyways I think you're being unfair to the original comment, they didn't say what you're claiming.

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#66

Post by hotdogscout »

komali2 wrote: post #39
hotdogscout wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 1924? What? Socialism was extremely popular in academia during that period. The US had the Espionage Act but I cannot think anywhere the stoning of socialists would happen, let alone in academia. Stoning black people was never a thing as far as I know. Do you have any pointers?

> Stoning black people was never a thing as far as I know. Do you have any pointers? Lynchings of black people continued well into the 1900s. https://naacp.org/find-resources/history-explained/history-l... And in particular during the civil rights movement, there was extraordinary violence against black people for daring to do nothing more than speak. Check out the library of congress: https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/ci…

If you look at any right leaning pundit online you'd see substantial instances of violence against the right. Look at Andy Ngo's Feed.

1924 preceded McCarthyism by 3 decades.

I conceded that the stonings did happen against Black people and I didn't know.

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#67

Post by hotdogscout »

woooooo wrote: post #65
hotdogscout wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was talking about "and the 2023 Whitworth University disinvitation of Xi Van Fleet, a Chinese dissident who grew up during Mao’s Cultural Revolution." The comment claimed only the most vile ideas get deplatformed and a lot of the examples in that article cite people that are not vile but inconvenient to the left.

Hadn't heard of her. Apparently she wrote a book called "Mao's America". Anyways I think you're being unfair to the original comment, they didn't say what you're claiming.

"I think it's sociologically healthy for our species that people with ugly, hateful ideologies face as much resistance as possible, in many forms, all the time."

I really don't think I'm being unfair in saying that comment implies the deplatformed people are vile.

Given the context of the article what other group could be the "people with ugly, hateful ideologies" if not the deplatformed speakers?

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#69

Post by major505 »

SamPatt wrote: post #7

What is the mindset of a college student who goes out of their way to shout down and prevent other people from speaking? This isn't rhetorical, I genuinely want to know why they think, in a place ostensibly dedicated to learning, it's acceptable (and seemingly even admirable) behavior.

I think is because people this days make what they consider hate speech as violence, and so thy see themselves as heroes.

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#70

Post by major505 »

ToValueFunfetti wrote: post #42
komali2 wrote: post #25

> A record 87 student-involved deplatforming attempts occurred in 2023, and 2024 is already on track to beat it — with 18 already recorded as of Feb. 29. Maybe I'm just a filthy anarchist but I really don't see the issue with this. Not only because communities should be allowed to tell people they don't like to fuck off, but also because the telling-to-fuck-off itself is a valid political action. A system like a Univ…

I don't think you can make the leap from 'a speaker was deplatformed' to 'the campus community told them to fuck off'. It does not take that many students to disrupt a speaking event.

The thing is not the entire campus comunity. IF someone is invited to speak in a campus, than it menas there are people interested to listen and debate the ideas. IF a loud group interrrupts the process, then they this is delpataforming someone.
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