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Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

greglukianoff.substack.com

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Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#21

Post by gcr »

notgoliath wrote: post #3

The term "deplatforming attempt" lacks a clear definition, making it challenging to ascertain its exact meaning. It could encompass situations where there's dissent towards a speaker or concerns raised about their content. It might involve hecklers disrupting an event. However, reports of faculty or speakers being forcibly removed are often exaggerated. The concept of deplatforming is inflated to serve right-wing age…

I do wish the author defined what it meant. Heckling? Pushback? Public calls for firing?

Without clarity, it becomes a word that the audience is invited to read their own interpretation into. When this happens, the article serves the purpose of indoctrination rather than persuasion. This is because the audience now self-limits to people who already believe deplatforming poises the threat described in the article.

See “double contextualization” and “name abuse assessment” (NAA) in a literal banana’s article: https://carcinisation.files.wordpress.com/2020/06/extended-s...

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#22

Post by hotdogscout »

cauch wrote: post #14

That's a strange metric to measure "free speech", as this metric would be very high in campus where free speech is strongly suppressed and where students are punished to complain about discourse that are dangerous for their own safety. After all, some deplatforming attempts are themselves an exercise of free speech, where people who feel excluded from the platform are trying to rebalance the debate by asking that we…

>some deplatforming attempts are themselves an exercise of free speech, where people who feel excluded from the platform are trying to rebalance the debate by asking that we stop focusing on debunked theories.

Bizarre paradox where a group is disenfranchised enough in academia it needs to protest dissent yet it can consistently expel people from it for disagreeing.

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#23

Post by cauch »

SamPatt wrote: post #7

What is the mindset of a college student who goes out of their way to shout down and prevent other people from speaking? This isn't rhetorical, I genuinely want to know why they think, in a place ostensibly dedicated to learning, it's acceptable (and seemingly even admirable) behavior.

I may be wrong, but from what I've seen, the majority of "prevention of other people from speaking" is done to people who are not really constructive and muddy the water. The article mention Milo Yiannopolous, for example. If you look at the person, it is quite clear that his contribution will not help learning anything, just spreading cliché and create polarisation that will both destroy intelligent debate and possibly push for unfair decisions that will have a real impact on people.

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#24

Post by Hnrobert42 »

notgoliath wrote: post #20
Hnrobert42 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article goes into some depth describing what constitutes a deplatforming event, including shouting down an in-progress event, rescinding an offer to speak, etc.

While the article may detail various forms of deplatforming events, such as shouting down speakers or rescinding speaking invitations, these actions, while disruptive, do not inherently pose a significant threat to free speech. Another thing to note... Freedom of speech guarantees individuals the right to express their opinions, but it does not guarantee them a platform or audience. Institutions have the prerogative…

I was responding to the point that deplatforming is poorly defined. I was not making an argument about whether it is the correct response.

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#25

Post by komali2 »

> A record 87 student-involved deplatforming attempts occurred in 2023, and 2024 is already on track to beat it — with 18 already recorded as of Feb. 29.

Maybe I'm just a filthy anarchist but I really don't see the issue with this. Not only because communities should be allowed to tell people they don't like to fuck off, but also because the telling-to-fuck-off itself is a valid political action.

A system like a University invites someone like Tomi Lahren or Josh Hammer to come speak, and often leverages violence to ensure that those people are allowed to come and speak - sometimes the state lends violence as well. Yeah, you can not go to the assembly hall that day, but ostensibly when you live on a campus and spend every day there studying and incorporating its culture into yourself, that becomes your community, and I think it's awesome that people reject someone else telling them what their community should put up with.

I think it's sociologically healthy for the community to protest when people like that come to speak, and I think it's sociologically healthy for our species that people with ugly, hateful ideologies face as much resistance as possible, in many forms, all the time.

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#26

Post by bananapub »

it is surreal how insanely the right wing of America frames this whole discussion, and how the notional "center" of American politics engages with it as if it is a good faith discussion of an important and consistently held principle.

are they genuinely suggesting that everyone has a right to speak at any university? and that the university has to let them? and that the university has to provide security, and AV staff and pay for catering? really?

who does it apply to anyway? anyone any student invites? any student club? do janitors get to invite people? how about professors?

or is that you can't uninvite someone after they've received an invite? really? how thorough a background check should one do before extending an invite then? what if you find out they killed their wife on the way to the school?

or is it that students shouldn't loudly complain about things they disagree with? really? if I'm a student at some uni, and some arseholes invite Nick Fuentes to come and give a talk about how he wants to gas the jews, I should just...not do anything? not complain to the administration? not go and tell him he's a cunt? really?

and how much force - physical and administrative - should universities use to stop students exercising their free speech to complain and protest? fines? rubber bullets? actual bullets?

what if the leader of Islamic Jihad wants to give a speech? Kim Jong-Un? how much is the university required to spend on security in those cases? infinity dollars?

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#28

Post by mouse_ »

putzdown wrote: post #17
mouse_ wrote: post #4

Not 100 years ago, you'd be stoned for being a socialist, or being black in the wrong public setting. No one was going to protect you. Protected free speech is a myth, at best.

I think you're saying that because a century ago some people oppressed other people (in America?), therefore free speech was never protected. If that's what you're saying, I don't see that the conclusion follows from the premise. It is possible for a society to protect free speech in general but to fail to protect it in specific instances. That's a deplorable inconsistency for a society to have, but it doesn't make f…

Inconsistently protected rights are not "rights".

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#29

Post by cauch »

hotdogscout wrote: post #22
cauch wrote: post #14

That's a strange metric to measure "free speech", as this metric would be very high in campus where free speech is strongly suppressed and where students are punished to complain about discourse that are dangerous for their own safety. After all, some deplatforming attempts are themselves an exercise of free speech, where people who feel excluded from the platform are trying to rebalance the debate by asking that we…

>some deplatforming attempts are themselves an exercise of free speech, where people who feel excluded from the platform are trying to rebalance the debate by asking that we stop focusing on debunked theories. Bizarre paradox where a group is disenfranchised enough in academia it needs to protest dissent yet it can consistently expel people from it for disagreeing.

Do they "consistently expel people" though?

The very very large majority of requests to deplatforming are not followed by deplatforming. There are _tons_ of university and _tons_ of people complaining. If the majority was reaching their goal, everyone would be deplatformed all the time. (there are plenty of deplatforming protests from the "left", but as much from the "right", just look at all the banning laws discussed in states like Florida, for example)

Also, why are they organizing a protest if they are the ones deciding of everything in the first place?

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#30

Post by yawpitch »

SamPatt wrote: post #7

What is the mindset of a college student who goes out of their way to shout down and prevent other people from speaking? This isn't rhetorical, I genuinely want to know why they think, in a place ostensibly dedicated to learning, it's acceptable (and seemingly even admirable) behavior.

The answer depends, in its entirety, on the speech being shouted down.

To Godwin, if famous “author” A. Hitler gets invited to your place of learning and starts promoting the usage of industrial ovens as a solution to his Jewish Question, then you bloody well shout him down, and if you don’t there is something fatally flawed in your humanity. The point of the university is to educate the students; in this case their education should be in what kinds of speech are quite simply not acceptable, and what kind of ideas simply aren’t worthy of being entertained, much less propogandized.

The fact that someone is entitled to their idiot opinion doesn’t imply that they’re entitled to have their idiot opinion heard respectfully and without opposition.

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