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Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

greglukianoff.substack.com

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Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#41

Post by hotdogscout »

defrost wrote: post #33
hotdogscout wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 1924? What? Socialism was extremely popular in academia during that period. The US had the Espionage Act but I cannot think anywhere the stoning of socialists would happen, let alone in academia. Stoning black people was never a thing as far as I know. Do you have any pointers?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre was 1921 and was a little more excessive than stoning. Lynching and posing with corpses for collectable postcards was also a thing of the times. Technically none of this is stoning but it's easy to imagine church gowing people that are willing to lynch black people were very likely to stone them also. Addendum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Summer Beginning on Jul…

That's a far cry from the context he painted. Socialists were absolutely not under that kind of violent lynching level of abuse and it was quite the opposite in Academia.

[Just to be clear, did not know about Red Summer and I concede that point.]

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#42

Post by ToValueFunfetti »

komali2 wrote: post #25

> A record 87 student-involved deplatforming attempts occurred in 2023, and 2024 is already on track to beat it — with 18 already recorded as of Feb. 29. Maybe I'm just a filthy anarchist but I really don't see the issue with this. Not only because communities should be allowed to tell people they don't like to fuck off, but also because the telling-to-fuck-off itself is a valid political action. A system like a Univ…

I don't think you can make the leap from 'a speaker was deplatformed' to 'the campus community told them to fuck off'. It does not take that many students to disrupt a speaking event.

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#43

Post by SamPatt »

yawpitch wrote: post #30
SamPatt wrote: post #7

What is the mindset of a college student who goes out of their way to shout down and prevent other people from speaking? This isn't rhetorical, I genuinely want to know why they think, in a place ostensibly dedicated to learning, it's acceptable (and seemingly even admirable) behavior.

The answer depends, in its entirety, on the speech being shouted down. To Godwin, if famous “author” A. Hitler gets invited to your place of learning and starts promoting the usage of industrial ovens as a solution to his Jewish Question, then you bloody well shout him down, and if you don’t there is something fatally flawed in your humanity. The point of the university is to educate the students; in this case their…

Of the scores of deplatforming events noted in the article, how many of them are you proposing are similar in kind to Hilter proposing genocide?

If it's a tiny minority, then why use this sensationalist example?

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#44

Post by defrost »

hotdogscout wrote: post #41
defrost wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre was 1921 and was a little more excessive than stoning. Lynching and posing with corpses for collectable postcards was also a thing of the times. Technically none of this is stoning but it's easy to imagine church gowing people that are willing to lynch black people were very likely to stone them also. Addendum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Summer Beginning on Jul…

That's a far cry from the context he painted. Socialists were absolutely not under that kind of violent lynching level of abuse and it was quite the opposite in Academia. [Just to be clear, did not know about Red Summer and I concede that point.]

I haven't looked at the treatment of socialists - I just addressed the stoning of blacks.

IIRC union busting in the US was quite violent and sometimes involved the police and | or military aiding in charging and beating strikers with clubs and occasional deaths, frequent injuries.

Again, not stoning but would count as violence towards socialists | communists | workers.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_union_busting_in_th...

1916 - 1925 seems to be a peak time of extreme violence toward unions.

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#45

Post by hotdogscout »

woooooo wrote: post #36
hotdogscout wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A victim of Maoist violence represents an "ugly hateful ideology"? This shunning bar has been moved from fascists for some years.

Please tell us where the Maoist violence is occurring in 2024.

This is a loaded question and I can't see how it's related.

A victim of Maoist violence was deplatformed by socialist students. Do victims of socialist governments represent such an abhorrent ideology?

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#46

Post by komali2 »

SamPatt wrote: post #7

What is the mindset of a college student who goes out of their way to shout down and prevent other people from speaking? This isn't rhetorical, I genuinely want to know why they think, in a place ostensibly dedicated to learning, it's acceptable (and seemingly even admirable) behavior.

I'm curious if you genuinely believe it's worth listening to the nuance of a racist's arguments. Not everyone getting shouted down at universities are avowed racists, but some are, or transphobes, or have vocally opposed women's humanity (you can't call for the removal of women's bodily autonomy and square that with believing they're equal humans to men). So for the racists, what is there to learn?

Not to mention that the entire modus operandi of reactionary ideologies is a dependence on fallacious arguments, rhetorical dishonesty, bad faith arguing, etc. Engaging with them is nearly always a waste of time.

There's no point in debating reactionaries. They don't deserve it - they're not interested in "the marketplace of ideals," they're interested in muddying the waters and justifying violence.

Shouting them down is the only thing they really deserve. In another world, maybe ignoring them would be the only thing they deserve, but they don't exist in a vacuum - they have followers. It's good to remind people that the majority of us find these ideas intolerable.

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#47

Post by putzdown »

cauch wrote: post #23
SamPatt wrote: post #7

What is the mindset of a college student who goes out of their way to shout down and prevent other people from speaking? This isn't rhetorical, I genuinely want to know why they think, in a place ostensibly dedicated to learning, it's acceptable (and seemingly even admirable) behavior.

I may be wrong, but from what I've seen, the majority of "prevention of other people from speaking" is done to people who are not really constructive and muddy the water. The article mention Milo Yiannopolous, for example. If you look at the person, it is quite clear that his contribution will not help learning anything, just spreading cliché and create polarisation that will both destroy intelligent debate and possi…

But surely "not really constructive" and "muddy the water" implies a judgment—a pre-judgment—that the speech itself ought to be allowed to face. If he speaks and his ideas are "not really constructive" and "muddy the water", then the listeners can decide what to do with the ideas, both within their own minds and in conversation afterward. If he's not allowed to speak, then the people preventing the speech are enforcing their own opinions by violence. This behavior actually implies that his ideas are of more merit, because if the ideas were not really constructive or entirely lacked value, then the listeners could dismiss them thoughtfully.

Or could it be that modern students don't have the ability to think carefully about or make good judgments about speech?

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#48

Post by cauch »

hotdogscout wrote: post #38
cauch wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they "consistently expel people" though? The very very large majority of requests to deplatforming are not followed by deplatforming. There are _tons_ of university and _tons_ of people complaining. If the majority was reaching their goal, everyone would be deplatformed all the time. (there are plenty of deplatforming protests from the "left", but as much from the "right", just look at all the banning laws discuss…

different spaces have different harassment problems. Academia can have an extreme concentration of leftist dogmatism while political society can have a far right one. Both can happen at the same time in different communities.

I'm not sure how it answer to what I say.

What I've said is that:

1) the majority of attempts are not successful, so "yet it can consistently expel people from it for disagreeing" is just incorrect, so there is no paradox.

2) the people organising or allowing the events in the first place are the one in charge. If indeed the "complainers" are in charge, how is that possible that the event got the initial green light, or that the event is not simply shut down by the ones in charge when they realise they don't like it?

3) attempts are from every directions. For example, Christian student groups are organising lobbying to deplatform some stuffs they don't like for ages. It feels like this idea that it's now "all leftist" is in fact slightly "now the leftists are doing what the others were doing all along, so long that we did not notice". (not saying it's not the case, just that it's slightly biased: people trying to deplatform something you think is fair to talk about are "against free speech", people trying to deplatform something you think is stupid are just "reacting normally")

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#49

Post by komali2 »

hotdogscout wrote: post #38
cauch wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they "consistently expel people" though? The very very large majority of requests to deplatforming are not followed by deplatforming. There are _tons_ of university and _tons_ of people complaining. If the majority was reaching their goal, everyone would be deplatformed all the time. (there are plenty of deplatforming protests from the "left", but as much from the "right", just look at all the banning laws discuss…

different spaces have different harassment problems. Academia can have an extreme concentration of leftist dogmatism while political society can have a far right one. Both can happen at the same time in different communities.

Do you believe that leftist dogmatism and associated deplatforming in the context of universities is equivalent in the application of real world harm to reactionary dogmatism and "deplatforming" in the context of a nation?

I would be surprised if you're suggesting equivalence between a usually quite well off and at least somewhat famous speaker being shouted at from a few people in a crowd (who are usually quickly escorted out by cops), to, for example, women in Texas wondering if it's safe to leave the state to get an abortion, or, a teacher in Florida having to hide a photo of his husband he usually keeps on his desk for fear of losing his job (or even facing criminal charges as a "groomer").

Re: Campus free speech was in trouble in 2018, and the data shows worsening

#50

Post by snapcaster »

ecmascript wrote: post #18
snapcaster wrote: post #11

I haven't been in University for over a decade now, but is this an actual real problem or just conservative provocateurs whining?

> actual real problem or just conservative provocateurs whining Can't tell if this is a joke or not. If not, can't you see the irony in your own typing?

I'm not really a political partisan, what I'm attempting to ask is if this is a real problem affecting genuine academics and others or if it's just people like Milo (grifter) being mad they can't run their grifts on campuses anymore
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